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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 8939916" data-attributes="member: 5889">yes because of a key difference. Reflect attack AUTOMATICALLY stops the attack (no save required). The int save is only necessary to see if the attacker now hits themselves.Automatic abilities are a big deal, you have a guarranteed stop of any 1 melee attack, no matter how strong. That is more than worth a few bumps in tier.Now you might be right that it was also intended for "hit thyself" to be a higher tier ability, but its not guaranteed, because the automatic portion is such a strong part of the maneuver.</blockquote>