D&D General Reducing incoming damage: +1 =/= +5%

[Shiroiken]

The issue with the Defensive fighting style is the same issue with shields: most players prefer to be aggressive than defensive, even if it's the wrong choice. Think about how many times you've seen a melee character either dash or throw a weapon at disadvantage (from range). I'd bet most of those times it would have been smarter for the character to dodge instead. This is especially stupid when the enemy doesn't have any ranged attacks either, but that never seems to stop them. Leroy Jenkins was around long before the internet, he just gave it a name...

 

[Argyle King]

I think part of the reason why archery styles are seen as "better" is because they're also a way to avoid damage.

+1 AC is nice, but not being in a position to be hit at all tends to be better

...and if I can do that without very many drawbacks and while also killing the enemy faster? Great

Though, I'll also say that I personally would choose +1 AC over the Great Weapon Fighter. If I'm stuck in melee as part of my fighting style, I would choose not being hit at all over slugging it out. If I'm not being hit, that frees up the action economy of the party healer to do other things, and I see that as better for the party as a whole in terms of handling challenges.

 

[FrogReaver]

Tanking in 5e I find somewhat works, but you have the issue of only having one reaction.

You can do a lot with Shieldmaster though, which tends to be underrated. Being able to shove as a bonus action is very useful for setting up choke points. Being able to knock prone is useful to and it halves movement which may make it impossible for them to attack anyone but you (of course this is where you need party cooperation. If your goal is to lock someone in place, so they can only attack you it's not much help if the rest of the party then rush in to attack them because they have Advantage.

My problem with shieldmaster is that dual wielding can do essentially the same thing from level 5 on - and there's no question on whether they can make the attempt with their first attack.

TWF: Attempt shove prone -> extra attack makes an actual attack -> bonus action makes an attack with TWF

 

[FrogReaver]

I think part of the reason why archery styles are seen as "better" is because they're also a way to avoid damage.

+1 AC is nice, but not being in a position to be hit at all tends to be better

...and if I can do that without very many drawbacks and while also killing the enemy faster? Great

Though, I'll also say that I personally would choose +1 AC over the Great Weapon Fighter. If I'm stuck in melee as part of my fighting style, I would choose not being hit at all over slugging it out. If I'm not being hit, that frees up the action economy of the party healer to do other things, and I see that as better for the party as a whole in terms of handling challenges.

IMO, archery only comes across as the best style because Sharpshooter exists.

More importantly though, trying to stay away from enemies is typically detrimental to party success because at least 1 party member is melee and thus will be taking damage. All you staying away from enemies does is incentivize enemies to attack him.

 

[FrogReaver]

The issue with the Defensive fighting style is the same issue with shields: most players prefer to be aggressive than defensive, even if it's the wrong choice. Think about how many times you've seen a melee character either dash or throw a weapon at disadvantage (from range). I'd bet most of those times it would have been smarter for the character to dodge instead. This is especially stupid when the enemy doesn't have any ranged attacks either, but that never seems to stop them. Leroy Jenkins was around long before the internet, he just gave it a name...

It highly depends on the situation. Dodging against unengaged enemies that can freely ignore your dodging and attack a more aggressive ally isn't a great tactic. Dodging against enemies when you are the only target in range is much better than throwing javelins though.

 

[Argyle King]

IMO, archery only comes across as the best style because Sharpshooter exists.

More importantly though, trying to stay away from enemies is typically detrimental to party success because at least 1 party member is melee and thus will be taking damage. All you staying away from enemies does is incentivize enemies to attack him.

Dead enemies can't attack

If they're taking a volley of fire before being able to engage in melee, they'll likely have less staying power even if they do manage to survive.

In 5E, there aren't very many drawbacks to firing into melee. So, worst case scenario: one guy tanks and blocks the advance of the enemy while allies rain attacks from relative safety.

 

[FrogReaver]

Dead enemies can't attack

Neither can dead PC's

If they're taking a volley of fire before being able to engage in melee, they'll likely have less staying power even if they do manage to survive.

And here is where we get into all kinds of assumptions. Whether you realize it or not, you are presuming distances favorable to the ranged party.

In 5E, there aren't very many drawbacks to firing into melee.

Not many direct ones anyways. But as noted, there is the indirect disadvantage of having damage focused on fewer PC's due to the archer staying away from the enemies.

So, worst case scenario: one guy tanks and blocks the advance of the enemy while allies rain attacks from relative safety.

The worst case is that you are incentivizing the enemies to focus fire the melee allies - which is likely much more detrimental to them than for the enemies you are focus firing with your ranged attacks (PC lives matter, their enemies are intended to die).

 

[Mordhau]

My problem with shieldmaster is that dual wielding can do essentially the same thing from level 5 on - and there's no question on whether they can make the attempt with their first attack.

TWF: Attempt shove prone -> extra attack makes an actual attack -> bonus action makes an attack with TWF

Good point. Although the vast majority of TWF buildings are Dex based so not very good at shoving.

However, this seems like a reason to go Str based. You do still have the issue that if you are planning on tanking, your AC is down by two unless you spent a feat on Dual Wielder.

Shield Master also has the benefit of improving your Dex saving throw.

 

[Mordhau]

I think PCs don't dodge because they just want to do something on their turn rather than nothing.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think PCs don't dodge because they just want to do something on their turn rather than nothing.

Agreed. Tactically speaking dodging has it's place though - even if psychologically it may feel like a wasted turn.