Reducing Level Adjustment through Feats

[irdeggman]

Good catch! I accidentally used the damage for a large bastard sword instead of a greatsword.

If I redo the numbers with the corrected damage the Goliath edges out the Orc. However I noticed if I gave the orc Monkey Grip (and a bigger sword) instead of Improved Toughness it swung back in his favor, and if the Goliath had Cleave instead of Weapon Specialization he's right back where he strated. Ultimately, the orc ends up being the most versatile (something I never expected to type).

Or you could give the goliath Improved Initiative instead and then he wins initiative more often than the orc and will do more damage while being able to take more.

And the goliath should blow him away with hit points (orc minus toughness).

He gets 1 + Con mod bonus hit points from Glass Jaw of Steel and he has +1 hit /level (from his Con mod) difference with the orc.

So that is 4 + 4 = 8 more hit points at 4th level.

Now if you use racial substitution levels watch out. The goliath barbarian with mountain rage is real, real powerful.

 

[Nellisir]

I've toyed with this idea. I give a feat per level, and was toying with each level of LA being able to be bought out for two feats. Hadn't gotten further than that, though - I fundamentally prefer a level-based solution to the problem, ie (modified) racial classes.

I really dislike class levels without HD.

 

[Volsung]

Or you could give the goliath Improved Initiative instead and then he wins initiative more often than the orc and will do more damage while being able to take more.

And the goliath should blow him away with hit points (orc minus toughness).

He gets 1 + Con mod bonus hit points from Glass Jaw of Steel and he has +1 hit /level (from his Con mod) difference with the orc.

So that is 4 + 4 = 8 more hit points at 4th level.

However, what feat do you give up to give the goliath Improved Initiative? Your choices are Power Attack or Weapon Specialization, both of which directly weaken his damage output. Whereas the orc could give up Improved Toughness (since the 4 hit points aren't doing much for him anyway), and take Improved Initiative too, which in turn gives him an advantage over the goliath again.

Also, you misread Glass Jaw of Steel. Once the goliath takes Reduce Level Adjustment it no longer provides any benefit.

 

[Volsung]

I've toyed with this idea. I give a feat per level, and was toying with each level of LA being able to be bought out for two feats. Hadn't gotten further than that, though - I fundamentally prefer a level-based solution to the problem, ie (modified) racial classes.

I really dislike class levels without HD.

I'd thought about racial classes, since the weak creature types (humanoids, fey, giants, etc.) seem to work out okay if you just add 2HD per point of LA. For example, you could have a bugbear as a 4HD humanoind instead of a 2HD humainoid with a +1 LA. The problem I run into seems to be with creatures like outsiders and dragons, which benefit a lot more from hit dice.

So, am I understanding you that give you characters a feat at every level instead of at every third level? If so 2 feats per LA seems awfully light. Or, are you just saying that you're debating between a point of LA costing one or two feats?

 

[Nellisir]

I'd thought about racial classes, since the weak creature types (humanoids, fey, giants, etc.) seem to work out okay if you just add 2HD per point of LA. For example, you could have a bugbear as a 4HD humanoind instead of a 2HD humainoid with a +1 LA. The problem I run into seems to be with creatures like outsiders and dragons, which benefit a lot more from hit dice.

Right. The non-d8 creatures screw things up. I'm inclined to ignore them for these purposes in my campaign, though.

So, am I understanding you that give you characters a feat at every level instead of at every third level? If so 2 feats per LA seems awfully light. Or, are you just saying that you're debating between a point of LA costing one or two feats?

I give a feat every level instead of every three, yes. I think there are way too many good feats, and too few opportunities to take them.

And, it all depends on the LA. Some, like the aasimar, are barely worth two feats. Some are probably worth 4 or more. Losing two feats still hurts, even if you get more than core - because you're getting less than everyone around you.

 

[Nifft]

Completely aside from this issue, I'm not planning on allowing Monkey Grip or any creature with Powerful Build in my game (I'm in the "go Large or go home" crowd). Still it makes for an interesting, if purely academic, exercise.

Large weapon at -2 attack generally isn't worth it. You get an extra +1d6 damage (expected value 3.5) but lose two points of two-handed Power Attack (expected value 4), and you lose the flexibility to NOT Power Attack.

Monkey Grip is a waste of a feat.

Your calculations were a little off on the Half-Celestial (to be fair my misspelling of brethren is by far the more egregious error). It should have read:

Half-Celestial: Con 18 = 64 hp, levels (12 + 15*6.5) = 109.5, total = 173.5

Glass Jaw of Steel puts him about 18 points ahead, which isn't that terrible at 20th level.

Of course, this leads one to consider how this would look in a game with a generous point buy and a player bent on creating a damage soaking monster.

D'oh! You're right. My numbers were wrong.

But I'd like to point out that I deliberately picked the most favorable class for hit dice -- the Barbarian. If we look at a half-celestial Ranger, for example, the equation changes to:

Half-Celestial: Con 18 = 64, levels (8 + 15*4.5) = 75.5, total = 139.5
Regular: Con 14 = 40, levels (8 + 19*4.5) = 133.5

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

How does one get a table to show up correctly in a thread?

Quote my post to see.

1   .X.
2   X.X
3   .X.

Cheers, -- N