Redundant Rogue Talents? And Major Magic.

[Friend of the Dork]

Hello

I was reading up on the Rogue class, amazed at the potential of their Arcana abilities. Sure it takes 4th level to get there but is anyone else impressed by the fact that Rogues can now get say Shield 2/day? And this for a class that often gets two-weapon fighting and sneak attacks... pretty awesome I would say at 4th level. There might be other more powerful spells out there but anyway I digress..

The issue is really the Rogue Talents themselves. One of the minor talents is called Combat Trick which allows any combat feat. But why then are there listed several other talents that allows a specific combat feat (Finesse Rogue for instance)?

Or is it maybe that each talent can only be taken once, thus you only get 1 1st level spell, 1 combat feat of your choise, or one... arh...

Ok after reading the rules fully I now realize there is indeed a limitation that you cannot select a talent more than one time, so this whole question is answered oh well hope I'm not the only one that missed it.

So.. so not to completely waste this topic.. what do you think of Major Arcana? Which spells would be awesome? A rogue with +1 chain shirt, 18 dex and Shield spell at lvl 4 has AC 23 for 4 minutes, 2 time per day... any way to easily beat that except with more magic items?)

 

[satinder]

thats ridiculous the only way ive beat that at 4th level was a PFS bard/oracle with natures whisper mystery. You could even have that at level 3 if you use extra rogue talent from the APG.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

thats ridiculous the only way ive beat that at 4th level was a PFS bard/oracle with natures whisper mystery. You could even have that at level 3 if you use extra rogue talent from the APG.

Yes, it's pretty tough. There is a reason why martial characters usually don't get wizard/sorcerer spells... at least not in anything but scroll form. But here we are talking spell-like abilities which are basically innate magic (still provokes) which can be discreetly used in a suprise round or before an encounter.

I thought people said the Rogue class was underpowered (compared to fighter, barb, ranger etc). in Pathfinder? I for one can see no evidence of that. 3.5 Rogue was a decent class, and the Pathfinder one seem to be the power-up version, just like all the other classes (possible exception of Monk).

I think maybe a small-sized cleric could beat it though: halfling cleric 3, +1 Breastplate, large shield, 16 dex+Shield of faith= 25 AC for 3 minutes. Of course that means using potential healing. but quite often Channel makes up for it. And a 4th level small fighter in full plate and +1 shield can get 25 AC right there and then, but that is to be expected.

The only issue is that the Rogue is supposed to have lower AC.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Seems to me the rogue has always had UMD; a few Sp abilities just save you a little money and time. I'd still say the rogue is underpowered pending a major revision of sneak attack and the introduction of the medium save.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Seems to me the rogue has always had UMD; a few Sp abilities just save you a little money and time. I'd still say the rogue is underpowered pending a major revision of sneak attack and the introduction of the medium save.

UMD costs money as you said. Although a couple hundred for a clvl 4 Shield might not sound much most characters won't use it unless they feel they have to. Also UMD requires a test and can have consequences if it fails. The DCs are fairly challenging on lower levels. Not to mention that you'd have to dig up a wand or scroll, meaning you can't hold anything else such as two short swords.

The strength of the Rogue is not and has never been combat ability, for that it is the figher class that righfully dominates, and the other high BAB classes comes close by.

No other class has the number of skill points and class skills of the rogue. Additionally no class is as good at detecting and disabling traps, locks etc.

Sneak attack is a decent attack ability that fits the flavor of the class and compensates a bit for a lack of spells, weapon proficiencies and full BAB. In fact it is even better than before because it can be used against Undead.

What else do you think the Rogue needs? Win solo duels against equal level fighters?

 

[Mojo_Rat]

there are numerous threads on it. the rogue is probably the weakest class in the game.the main method of damage sneak attack gets out passed by upfront damage from 2h weapons. unless the dm caters to allow for use of the rogues abilities they will fail at the o e area most players judge chatacters by combat.

it's probably not fair to judge them this way but that's how it goes the rogues low level a potential ac is at a price. to get it you have to spend 2 tricks which also means your spending a feat on finess. as opposed to a trick for finesse and bleeding attack.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

there are numerous threads on it. the rogue is probably the weakest class in the game.the main method of damage sneak attack gets out passed by upfront damage from 2h weapons. unless the dm caters to allow for use of the rogues abilities they will fail at the o e area most players judge chatacters by combat.

it's probably not fair to judge them this way but that's how it goes the rogues low level a potential ac is at a price. to get it you have to spend 2 tricks which also means your spending a feat on finess. as opposed to a trick for finesse and bleeding attack.

Sneak attack is bonus damage. Two-handed swords causes base damage. These two can be combined and a 1st level Rogue with 1 feat to get 3d6+ str bonus.

What rogues do not get however is +1 BAB per level, d10 hp (they have d8 which is only average 1 less hp per level), and tons of bonus feat (they get tons of rogue abilities instead.

And I really hope it's not true most players judge characters solely by their combat ability, if that's the case my respect for PF players drops considerably.

 

[neofax]

And I really hope it's not true most players judge characters solely by their combat ability, if that's the case my respect for PF players drops considerably.

I guess then your respect drops for most combat oriented RPG systems players(1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5E, Pathfinder, 4E, MM, Hero...). This is a least common denominator to measure classes by, right wrong or indifferent. Do classes like the Rogue get the shaft in this respect, YES, but they are not damage dealers. As long as you have a DM that understands the differences of each class and how to make them shine, the Rogue and other classes will look underpowered. I play Rogues almost exclusively and enjoy the flavor of the class and the ability to be OK at just about everything the other classes do until the Wizard comes into their own around level 7-9. I don't think Minor and Major magic are good rogue talents. I would invest in wands and either max out my UMD or have the spellcaster use them on me when needed. This is where the Rogue shines, scout ahead figure out the lay of the land and potential threats and come back buff up and party goes in and knocks some heads.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

I guess then your respect drops for most combat oriented RPG systems players(1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5E, Pathfinder, 4E, MM, Hero...). This is a least common denominator to measure classes by, right wrong or indifferent. Do classes like the Rogue get the shaft in this respect, YES, but they are not damage dealers. As long as you have a DM that understands the differences of each class and how to make them shine, the Rogue and other classes will look underpowered. I play Rogues almost exclusively and enjoy the flavor of the class and the ability to be OK at just about everything the other classes do until the Wizard comes into their own around level 7-9. I don't think Minor and Major magic are good rogue talents. I would invest in wands and either max out my UMD or have the spellcaster use them on me when needed. This is where the Rogue shines, scout ahead figure out the lay of the land and potential threats and come back buff up and party goes in and knocks some heads.

Well I guess I'm just lucky since most player's I've played with in various systems have not been 100% roll-players. Even the Optimizers have valued classes such as Rogue because of it's non-combat abilities.

And yes in the long run Major Magic is not worth it, as at later levels you can easily have a wand of shield and can afford a charge per combat. UMD will just get better all along.

The ability will get better in low-magic or low-wealth campaigns though, and could be exceptional in certain situations. It's all very circumstantial though.

 

[Kaiyanwang]

Major Magic is useful for things like Vanish. Exspecially if your gamestyle does not involve dungeon delving only.