reevaluating potions of resistance

[CapnZapp]

In the thread http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...ting-several-resistances-through-potions.html, I question the pricing of potions that give you resistance to various damage types.

Instead of messing about with the prices, however, how about the following simple house-rule:

All Potions must obey the general law "only one potion of resistance can be in effect on you at once" whether the potion is explicitly named "...of resistance" or not.

That is, this limitation also applies to things like Gravespawn (Cryptspawn, etc...) Potion, Firebeetle Potion, Kruthik Potion and so on.

What do you think?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm not really sure what the problem is. Potions of Resistance are MUCH lower level items than most of the "named" potions. Named potions are definitely better in some respects, but they're more expensive. Its true you can gain more types of resistance by stacking the named potions with each other and/or with a potion of resistance, but I don't really see what the big problem is.

I THINK the reason resistance potions were limited to one at a time in effect was that multiple resistances can have a bit of a synergistic effect against damage with multiple keywords. Honestly I don't think its that much of an issue and removing the no stacking rule from potion of resistance is not going to break anything in a big way as far as I can see. Remember, each potion you drink costs you an HS, so there is a disincentive to quaffing a whole bunch of potions.

 

[keterys]

Eh, my opinion is they're bad with or without stacking. Energy themed creatures are just totally screwed, and resistance potions (or similar potions) are just the nail in the casket. I was glancing at some monster damage the other day on something that got reduced to something like 7.5% damage by resist 5, cause it was all based on auras, ongoing, multiple attacks, etc and was otherwise like 1d6+3.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, yeah, they can easily make a huge difference in a fight. There are a few answers to that. One is just not using whole encounters full of creatures with strictly one type of damage output. In some cases that may be be desirable. Another is just to keep some limits on the availability of specific potions. Requiring some odd ingredients can do that since basic cost for a low level potion isn't going to do it (some of the higher level special ones probably are always going to be somewhat limited). Another option might be granting certain leader types the ability to cut down resistance, or providing environmental effects which partly offset resistance in some situations.

The thing is players are going to want to have ways to prepare for specific threats. Having resistance potions available to them is one pretty straightforward way for them to do that. Wizards can do a bit with tuning their spell book selections as well, but most characters don't have that option and forcing them to buy expensive permanent items for that purpose doesn't seem like its always a viable option.

I guess the other question would be how else would you deal with the issue? Its hard to come up with a resistance-like mechanism that is both simple to use and does something similar.

 

[Stalker0]

On the one hand, I think most consumable items are way too expensive in 4e. But on the other, potions of resistance are too good.

I think its less the price than it is that resistance in 4e is REALLY REALLY good.

Damages are lower than they were in 3e, so resistance 5 is already good. Further, it tends to hugely minimize or negate ongoing damage...which to me is the lynchpin of resistance's power.

As far as teh house rule, I'm fine with it. Limiting the stacking of the potions reduces the abuse.

 

[keterys]

Do it like protection from fire used to work. Potion of resistance absorbs up to X damage of a specific energy, then expires. Lets you compare it pretty easily to the temp hp and healing potions, too.

The biggest problem with resistance potions is they spend a resource _to make the combat more boring_. Like if people ever drink them for a dragon fight, the dragon should just fly away and come back some other time.

 

[CapnZapp]

Excellent replies.

Yes, I've already identified how potions absolutely destroy any fear and awe Dragon Breath might have. (I simply cannot understand those who answered "potions are worthless" - in 4E even Epic monsters do many bursts of small damage, so that even the basic resist 5 potions will always be useful)

(My group's encountered one Dragon - a green adult - so far, and I had to 1) up the ongoing damage from 5 to 10 and 2) allow the dragon to fly and breathe simultaneously, thus covering not a 5x5 field but a field 5 sq wide and as long as the Dragon can fly. My justification for this is that "when you go up against a Dragon, you come prepared". The by-the-book Dragon is only good for ambushing unprepared adventurers, or when potions are simply unavailable).

Redesigning potions to give, in effect, typed temporary hit points, is a good idea, but one I fear is too large a change for me to attempt it here and now.

Based on your replies I'm going to go ahead and use the idea of typed bonuses to apply to resistances as well.

That is, make all potion-based resistance into an "item bonus". That way, you can only benefit from resistance from one potion at a time. You can still be buffed by your PC ally, because resistance from a power will be considered as a "power bonus". Some magic gear gives resistance as an "enhancement bonus".

This way, a gravespawn potion will remain an absolute steal, because now it's an essentially free way of getting resist 5 to two common damage types. (Once you're into Paragon tier, you can afford to drink such a potion every encounter).

Luckily potions are still tied to healing surges though!

Zapp

AbdulAlhazred: Just because many dual-resistance potions aren't available at low levels doesn't mean that those that are, aren't a problem? I don't see your logic, sorry.

 

[CapnZapp]

Do it like protection from fire used to work. Potion of resistance absorbs up to X damage of a specific energy, then expires. Lets you compare it pretty easily to the temp hp and healing potions, too.

I do understand why they went away from this solution.

Having to track another figure is, by 4E standards, complex.

I think the 4E way to solve this would instead be to say: resistance from a potion can only protect you from sources up to 10 levels above the potion's level.

This way the cheapest potions of resistance would lose all effect once you go up against level 15 monsters.



Then I would probably add in level 9, 19, and 29 versions to tide you over the gaps.

That is, a level 9 Potion of Resistance that gives resist 5, costs 160 gp, but works against monsters up to and including level 19.

A level 19 Potion of Resistance would give resist 10 just like the level 14 one, but it would work against level 29 critters at a cost of 4,200 gold.

And a level 29 potion to allow you to gain resistance (15) against even the most epic (level > 34) gods and demons.

 

[CapnZapp]

By the way, I've found that there is something wrong with the Lifeshield and Stormshield Potions.

Why would you buy a potion and sacrifice a healing surge to get resistance to a single attack when that resistance is hardly better than the healing surge value you will have at that level?

What do you say about the following revision? In short, the resistance is made explicitly equal to your HS value. And if the potion saves you from all damage, you escape any conditions too (because how immunity works).

Potion of Lifeshield Level 7+
This lemony potion shields you from necrotic energy.
Lvl 7 100 gp Lvl 27 65,000 gp
Lvl 17 2,600 gp
Potion
Power (Consumable): Minor Action. Drink this potion
and spend a healing surge. You do not gain hit points as
normal. Instead, once during this encounter, you can use
an immediate interrupt action to gain resist equal to your
healing surge value necrotic against a single attack. If this
completely negates all damage, you're considered to be
immune to the attack.

Potion of Stormshield Level 8+
Your skin takes on a metallic sheen when you consume
this slate gray, ozone-smelling drink.
Lvl 8 125 gp Lvl 28 85,000 gp
Lvl 18 3,400 gp
Potion
Power (Consumable): Minor Action. Drink this potion
and spend a healing surge. You do not gain hit points as
normal. Instead, once during this encounter, you can use
an immediate interrupt action to gain resist equal to your
healing surge value lightning or resist equal to your
healing surge value thunder against a single attack. If this
completely negates all damage, you're considered to be
immune to the attack.


And of course, these potions too are ruled by the level+10 limitation discussed previously.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Potion of Lifeshield can be quite valuable. It just depends on your level. A level 7 version gives 15 resist vs 1 attack. This potion could show up in a game pretty easily as early as 2nd level since it costs 100 gp. At that point 15 resistance vs necrotic would be worth a decent amount more than a healing surge. In fact even a 6th level CON based dwarf fighter is unlikely to have an HS value OVER 15 and most other characters of that level will have HS values below 15.

I agree though the single shot resistance potions are kind of marginal overall. Not so much because they're not going to work as because its just not really worth buying a 1 shot 15 resistance for 100 gp when you can buy an encounter long 5 resistance for only 40 gp. Chances are you're going to get hit 2-3 times during an encounter, so the 5 resistance is likely to net you better than the 15 does at a cheaper price. In fact the 15 is likely to be overkill on the one shot it works on.

So yeah, I guess overall the one shot resistance potions are kind of worthless. Situationally they may do you some good, though. And don't forget, the main virtue of the 15 resistance is it works NOW. Its all good to say it isn't as good as an HS, but that HS will do you no good if you die before you get to use it.