Reflex Save for surprise?

[aliensex]

Not bad. I prefer the save vs. save roll better, but setting DCs is better for larger numbers (i.e. a party surprising a party). In the case of just stumbling across someone around a corner, I'd just have everyone make reflex saves. The highest roll got a surprise round, then everyone roll initiative. That would help make sure a low level party isn't wiped out just by turning a corner blindly.

For the first situation (everyone failed to spot the ambush), maybe saves vs. the best Hide result of the ambushers. Most of the time, this would probably involve taking a 20, so it would still be a very high DC to beat.

For the second case (only some spot), I guess thats situational. If they can just warn everyone by shouting, signalling, etc., then probably no surprise, just intitiative. That would bring up a case of a well prepared party, where one member Spots the ambushers, then secretly signals the rest of the party (maybe a use for the inuendo skill finally!), and now THEY have a chance to surprise the ambushers.

 

[EarthsShadow]

I like this. I am going to try it out.

 

[nameless]

The main problem I see with this system is that it ends up making surprise much more volatile. In the situation you named with the orc and the rogue, the rogue clearly has surprise and would get a surprise round (assuming he heard the orc coming before it opened the door). By offering the orc a reflex save, it makes it possible that he is not surprised when by all accounts he should be.

I'm sure you might put up the argument that "he just has quick enough reflexes to negate the surprise." This is represented by uncanny dodge, though. I think the general rule given in the PHB works in pretty much every situation:

1) If one party is aware of the other, and the second is unaware then the aware party gets a surprise round.

2) If neither party is aware, neither get a surprise round, and everyone is flat-footed until their initiative on the first round.

3) If both parties are aware, there is no surprise and nobody is flat-footed.

For the purposes of this, aware means that the members of the party have successfully made spot or listen checks, or possess some successful extraordinary means to detect their opponent (like blindsight)*.

*An aware combatant can still be caught flat-footed by an invisible (or hidden) attacker, if he doesn't pinpoint his location. This is not surprise per se, but similar.

 

[Khorod]

Also, the effective line between Initiative and Reflexes are already pretty blurred. Initiative is reaction first, Reflex save is reacting faster. The only reason why they are not the same number is that the Initiative and the Save systems require different magnitudes as the character's level.

Realizing that, I prefer to keep the two mechanically separate, so the rules stay simplified even though the logic of the separation is weak.

This does seem balanced in practice, though it places even heavier weight on those feats and items which grant a Reflex bonus.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think it's a bad idea. There are already mechanics for determining surprise--mechanics involving spot, listen, hide, move silently, spells and special abilities such as blindsight. There are already mechanics for determining initiative--feats, etc. And the mechanics fro reflex saves are different from both.

In the example of a rogue with a bow waiting by a door for an orc to come through it, the proper way to determine surprise would be this:

1. Did the Rogue know the orc was coming or was behind the door? (Opposed move silently by the orc against the rogue's listen at -5 for being behind a door and -1 for each 10 feet between him and the orc). Alternately, if the rogue had been in gaseous form and observed the orc approaching before he moved behind the door and readied his ambush it might be automatic. However, if the rogue didn't know the orc was coming, the door opening might catch him by surprise.

2. Did the orc know that the rogue was waiting or was behind the door? (Opposed move silently by the rogue (at bonusses for being still) against listen by the orc (at -5 for being behind a door and -1/10 feet of distance)).

If the orc knew that the rogue was there (perhaps informed by his Shaman whose familiar observed the rogue sneaking in) but the rogue didn't hear the orc coming, the rogue is surprised.

If the orc didn't know the rogue was there but the rogue knew about the orc, then the orc is surprised.

If either both of them were aware or one of each other or neither of them were aware of each other, there is no surprise round--initiative is rolled normally.

Initiative is what is used to determine who has the situational awareness and reflexes to act first once both parties are aware of each other.

I think that this is a much better system for surprise and initiative than the one you are proposing for several reasons:

1. In surprise, the primary factor being modelled is awareness not reflexes. It doesn't matter how quick you are if you don't know about your opponent when he starts attacking. Consequently, spot and listen skills and certain magics (like Foresight) are the way to deal with this.

2. Initiative is not simply reflexes but also situational awareness. It is also something that every character who engages in combat should be equally good at (all other things being equal). Fighters want to land the first sword blow, wizards the first spell, monks the first punch, etc. There's no reason why rogues and bards should be better at moving quickly other than their (typically) higher dexterities and proclivity towards taking Improved Initiative.

3. Using Reflex saves to simulate either spot and listen or initiative rolls leads to some awfully odd conclusions: A cloak of Resistance makes more of a difference to your initiative rolls than gloves of dexterity. Who knew? The Cloak of Resistance also makes your eyes and ears better. Who'd have thunk it? A paladin's Divine Grace not only means his god protects him; it also means that his god makes him better at spotting foes and react more quickly to situations. (Not completely counterintuitive but probably overpowered).