Reflex save: Need to move?

[Len]

Upon rereading it, however, I'm not so sure about a creature with a dex of 0 not getting a Ref save. Seems logical, but not rule-supported after all. Only creatures without a dex score. Huh.

Dex of 0 allows a reflex save with the corresponding penalty. As quoted above:

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).

and I can't find any other rule that specifically bars a save if you have dex = 0.

IMO there's no point trying to apply logic to forbid reflex saves in various situations, because you pretty soon end up denying saves to people caught in the middle of a fireball with no cover, and stuff like that, which is really annoying.

 

[Hypersmurf]

didnt hyp say something about getting a reflex save even if unconscious, just that your dex was 0 or something like that, could be wrong, it was awhile ago.

Hyp says the opposite, based on the quote from Evasion Silveras provided.

However, a Medium creature standing in a 10 foot room that gets hit with a fireball does not lack room to move... even though the fireball's area encompasses the entire room.

We know that a creature making a Reflex save does not leave his own square except under certain specific circumstances (save vs a falling Wall of Iron, for instance, allows creatures to "flee the falling wall"). Therefore a creature standing in the middle of a boundless plain, and a creature standing in a ten foot room, and a creature standing in a five foot room, all have the same "room to move" (assuming a Medium creature) - since he never leaves his square, he's only using five feet of space no matter how large the area around him is.

However, a Medium creature in a 2.5' tunnel does not have "room to move" (the example given in the Evasion description, from memory), and cannot use Evasion... as with a Reflex save for any creature.

The person in the ten foot room being fireballed can make a Reflex save. The person squeezed into the 2.5' tunnel cannot.

For the unconscious, held, paralyzed, or otherwise helpless person, who - with a Dex of zero - cannot move at all, no amount of room is "room to move". A 2.5' tunnel is not enough room to allow the helpless character to move. A 10' room is not enough room to allow the helpless character to move. A boundless plain is not enough room to allow the helpless character to move. And so he cannot use Evasion... as with a Reflex save for any creature.

-Hyp.

 

[Gort]

The way I envision passing a reflex save without moving on the board is people ducking under a fireball, wrapping their cloaks around them, that kind of thing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The way I envision passing a reflex save without moving on the board is people ducking under a fireball, wrapping their cloaks around them, that kind of thing.

Which works just fine in a 5' square, but could be problematic in a squeezing situation, and impossible while paralyzed.

Which is reflected by the rules for Reflex saves, found under the Evasion entry.

-Hyp.

 

[jessemock]

Which is reflected by the rules for Reflex saves, found under the Evasion entry.

-Hyp.

Right where they should be.

 

[Wolffenjugend]

I also envision people using other people (i.e. their fellow comrades) for cover to reduce the damage they take (indicated by a passed save).

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

I also envision people using other people (i.e. their fellow comrades) for cover to reduce the damage they take (indicated by a passed save).

Shouldn't that sentence go:

"I also envision people escaping the effects of area spells (indicated by a passed save) by using their fellow comrades for cover (indicated by a failed save)"

Thanks again guys, I've pointed my DM in the general direction of this thread.

AR