Reflex Saves in Enclosed Spaces

[Hypersmurf]

Note the description of the Evasion ability in the DMG, though.

"As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion."

A Medium character in a 5'x5' room has 'room to move'. A Large character in a 5' wide corridor is squeezing, and by this rule could be denied a Reflex save.

-Hyp.

 

[Crothian]

Note the description of the Evasion ability in the DMG, though.

"As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion."

A Medium character in a 5'x5' room has 'room to move'. A Large character in a 5' wide corridor is squeezing, and by this rule could be denied a Reflex save.

-Hyp.

wouldn't that be denied evasion and not the reflex save?

 

[Infiniti2000]

It says "As with a reflex save..." Some people interpret that to be an indirect reference that you don't get reflex saves either when bound or squeezing. To be more clear, they could have just said that you aren't allowed a reflex save, which by definition would mean evasion doesn't apply. Of course, you can still use evasion when you're unconscious. You just can't be tied up while unconscious.

 

[Timeron Malachi]

One of my favorite comments on this, was something to the effect of, "If your rogue is bound in chains, iron manacles, blindfolded with a bag on his head, and he's bolted to the floor...and someone casts a wand of fireball *on his head* he gets a reflex for half."

Honestly, the reflex save has, in my opinion, been one of those things that's much easier to swallow if you don't think about it too much. Like other people have said, you could take penalties for extreme circumstances, but in general, everyone gets a save.

 

[Hypersmurf]

wouldn't that be denied evasion and not the reflex save?

It depends if you consider the second sentence to be providing examples of when a creature does not have room to move.

If it's saying:
1. A creature must have room to move to use evasion or make a reflex save.
2. A bound creature or one squeezing cannot use evasion.

... then a squeezing creature cannot use evasion, but can make a reflex save.

However, if it's saying:
A creature must have room to move to use evasion. For example

• A bound creature
• A creature squeezing through an area

cannot use evasion.

... then squeezing would deny a reflex save.

-Hyp.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

That's not true. A fireball, like any spread effect, is explicitly not a burst, and it definitely fills the area, by rule. Reread the section on bursts and spreads.

It definitely fills the area insofar as the mechanics for the Fireball applies uniformly and equal to all areas contained. Ruleswise I agree.

But what does "fill" mean in our everyday sense? Is that fill like Jiffy fills a jar of peanut butter? Or maybe something else?

 

[Starman]

It definitely fills the area insofar as the mechanics for the Fireball applies uniformly and equal to all areas contained. Ruleswise I agree.

But what does "fill" mean in our everyday sense? Is that fill like Jiffy fills a jar of peanut butter? Or maybe something else?

It depends on what your definition of "is" is.

 

[Li Shenron]

The party is facing a dragon in an enclosed space. The dragon uses his breath weapon in such a way that the entire enclosed space is filled with fire. Do the characters still get a reflex save?

It has been debated since a long time.

What I do as a DM is to still give a Reflex save as normal. If the situation is exceptionally bad I may give a circumstance penalty to the ST.

My personal chosen explanation is that a fireball or breath weapon does not necessarily fill the whole area like a spread effect (e.g. fogs and clouds) which instead do not give a reflex ST usually.

Note that in 3ed there is no rules that say that you actually move out of the area when you succeed the reflex ST.

edit: sorry for the repetition, I posted before reading the other replies

 

[Li Shenron]

It depends on what your definition of "is" is.

Whether or not a fireball fills the area, early or late rules lawyers always fill every place

Just kidding (and I hope you were as well)

 

[Starman]

Whether or not a fireball fills the area, early or late rules lawyers always fill every place

Just kidding (and I hope you were as well)

I was. Reading some of the posts just made me think of that phrase.