Regarding skills

[dranizz]

Yeaterday we played our first 4th edition game, it took me some time to convince my friends to at least try it. We've been playing D&D for almost ten years now, starting with ADnD and been playing v3.5 for almost 5 years.

4th Edition is quite fun to play but there are some things bugging me. The skills are quite simplier now but still something wrong with it.

Let's say your a level 10 Figther with 8 INT ( cause your a dumbass, kdding) and you want to know something about a magic fact, if you roll a 20 (total score 24 then) your could know about it. Is it me or does it sound wierd. Let's face it, at 8 of INT, your pretty stupid. And also the fact that you are untrained (never learned about those facts) Is there seomthing wrong?

Also, how in the world this figther could take a magic sword in his hands, take a few minutes and guess that it's a Dancing Weapon +5 and that it has those properties... Should the DM always ask for a TRAINED arcana knowledge since there is no identify magic skill or spell?


Thanks for your thougths

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, if your fighter's level 10 then he's almost graduated beyond the idea of simply saving villiages and mayor's daughters that he's gained a bit more worldliness. He's learned a few things, altho they don't always come to him easily (hense the -1 modifier).

Int 8 doesn't mean autistic or mentally retarded, it just means he's a bit slower than others. But if he didn't have -some- capacity to learn new things he could never have been able to pick up a sword and learn fighting techniques.

There's things that fighter is smart about despite his Int 8 score. If such a guy could tell you details about first aid and how to find quarry one is tracking (Wisdom based stuff, Fighters have Wisdom as a secondary ability from ComSup) then he's got -some- brains in there.

 

[cmbarona]

8 Int is below average, where average is 10. It's not 6 or 4 or 2. Actually, it translates almost perfectly to IQ scores, where 8 would be an 80. It doesn't translate past 20, but whatever. You may be dull, but not exactly drooling. If you prefer to define that as "dumb" then go for it, but I think there are plenty of people with modest IQ scores who might object.

Are Intelligence-based skills your only objection? Because if so, it's relatively easy to explain these scenarios. Succeeding on an Arcana check in this case means you know the fact in question, but may lack the vocabulary to relate it to others. It doesn't have to come from intense study; in fact, the mechanics reflect that this is not the case. Perhaps the fighter overheard some strange discussion between two wizards at a pub or recognizes the effects of one kind of magic based on experience with similar kinds of magic. Whatever the case, it seems this is meant to reflect the character's experiences in adventuring, not diligent study.

As for identifying, a similar concept is involved. The fighter in question may not know to call it a "+5 dancing sword," but would probably recognize its superior quality and would surely recognize the fact that it can move on its own under the right circumstances (and no, I'm not advocating expending a daily item power to identify magic items that require them to activate).

 

[Tale]

Magic items work like Plug and Play devices.

 

[Mengu]

It's assumed that as an adventurer, you pick up a bit of knowledge on everything. This is represented by the half level bonus added onto every skill.

So the 8 intelligence fighter might not be good at figuring things out on his own, but he has heard enough magic talk from his companions that by 10th level, he has basic arcane knowledge (same score as if he were trained at 1st level).

As for guessing what weapons do, weapons are a fighter's specialty. They may not know magic as well, but they know weapons. And based on how a weapon handles and sparks, it makes sense to me that they should be able to figure out what the weapon does. Now technically they are equally good at figuring out what a wand does, which doesn't make as much sense to me, but the way item identification happens is you pass the items around, everyone takes a good look, maybe swishes the item and flicks it a bit, and someone will figure it out. So you can have different characters trying to figure out different item, that make sense to them.

The main point is, there is no longer a game mechanic to figure out what a magic item does (except when prompted by DM for special items). It is assumed the identification will happen in the background, just like eating, drinking, releaving the bladder, and the like.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Within the context of the game, the short blurb about, "Intelligence (INT) desribes how well your character learns and reasons." is pretty much nonsense.

Besides the aforementioned Heal (WIS), Dungeoneering (WIS), Nature (WIS) and Thievery (DEX) all include knowledge aspects and/or reasoning aspects that are reflective of the ability to learn and reason.

INT determines your aptitude with Wizard and Swordmage powers and has a secondary effect on some Warlord and Warlock powers. It also determines your aptitude for Arcana, History and Religion skills. And, if you have a lower DEX, it can contribute to your AC and Reflex defense. But that's pretty much it.

Mapping INT to IQ in 4e doesn't work, particularly in a point buy or array system where you would get worse at things requiring reason or knowledge by improving your Intelligence rather than another attribute (making your character become effectively less intelligent in a lot of cases rather than more intelligent by doing so). A canny, quick-witted rogue in 4e is a canny, quick-witted rogue with an 8 INT.

 

[Henry]

Igor the Fighter and Fizantilus the Wizard sat around the campfire, nursing their wounds from the Gnoll attack earlier that day. While Igor sharpened his sword, and their ally Turpin the Cleric tended to them, and Reynard the Quick played his recorder, Fiz chatted up his companions about what he would do one day when he was powerful, and skilled enough.

"One day, Iggy, I'll make a sword for you. A weapon that fights by itself, it will! See? It'll have these kinds of designs on it..." He showed iggy some odd scrawls in his grimoire... "...and it'll have the power to bring down a giant. You'll see. This symbol here, it takes a lot of skill to make, and it means, 'guthra,' 'to dance'. This one is the symbol for prowess at arms, 'ghatathra'. Your sword will be inscribed with symbols like this, loaded with power."

"Sure thing, Fiz", Igor said, half-heartedly. Iggy liked the little bookworm, especially when he could lay a gnoll low just by looking at him funny. But he liked to humor him.

One day, you'll command armies, I'll raze enemies to the ground, we'll carve a name for ourselves in that infested wilderness...

Igor, examining the sword he pulled from the Mind Flayer's treasury, took note of the sigils on its fuller and pommel. He'd seen these before. Poor Fizantilus showed him symbols like these, years before! Raven Queen rest his soul, Fizzy had died to a Chimera two years ago, but these symbols were just like that the little guy had showed him... This must be a sword just like what Fizantilus had promised he'd make him one day. A tear came to his eye. Good old Fizzy.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

@Henry: That's a perfect example of how to RP a situation like this...

Also, you have to look at life in general. Me, I'm not a Doctor...but I can tell you things about the body. I also know things about physics, chemistry, electrical science, mechanical assembly, computers, cars, business, etc...

Am I an expert in any of these fields? No. Can I rip open my car's engine and put it back together? Probably not. However, I know a few tricks with cars, and could probably change the brakes, the batteries, the oil and the fuses on my car with no problem.

This is what a skill check is, it's just a check of your total knowledge on a subject to see if something matches up. If you want to equate to the example above, I would roll a 5 if you asked me replace the cams in my car. As me to change the breaks, and I might roll a 15...meaning I could do it, as long as it wasn't too complicated. Replace the battery though? I would get a 20 because I've seen it done and done it myself before, on multiple vehicles.

 

[Turtlejay]

Since the OP mentioned wanting to 'know something about magic, I will use the Arcana skill to illustrate:

A 10th level fighter could get between a
5 (-1 for ability, +5 for 1/2 level, +1 for minimum roll on the die) and a
24 (-1 for ability, +5 for 1/2 level, +20 for maximum roll on the die).

That is an average score of 14.5.

A 10th level wizard who started with a 16 int and bumped it at 4th and 8th gets between a
15 (+4 for ability, +5 for 1/2 level, +5 for trained, +1 for minimum roll on the die) and a 34 (+4 for ability, +5 for 1/2 level, +5 for trained, +20 for maximum roll on the die).

That is an average roll of 24.5. That is 50% higher than the fighter.

Of course, no wizard with his salt is going to start with a 16 in his major stat, and you can add skill focus, racial bonus, item bonus, etc. to that to bump it up.

Why would a dumb fighter have an Arcana score only 50% lower than a wizard who clearly knows much more about Arcana? Because using it untrained he is not getting much of the benefit from it. Untrained, Arcana can get you:
- Arcana knowledge (except about the far realms)
- Monster knowledge

That's it. All the other functions of Arcana require you to be trained. It represents your fighter experiencing something like 90 combat encounters and some other large number of non-combat experiences, many of which likely involved magic. Even a fighter of Int 8 is going to learn some things over that type of experience. Compare this to 3e where the fighter may be wearing magical gear head to toe, spend his entire waking life enchanted by spells and have witnessed countless castings of spells and yet not even be eligible to roll to identify magical effects, since he is not trained.

Forgive my rancor at this, but one of the hard sells in getting people in my gaming group to even TRY 4e was their apparent misconceptions about the skill system and the 1/2 level bonus to skill checks. I think when examined it bears out quite nicely, better even than 3e did.

Jay

 

[dranizz]

Ok, thanks.

I understand the philosophy behind it.

Wich I guess why the High DC are there for. Like an untrained Arcana might guess some things about a magical beast (DC 15 for instance) and that a trained Arcanist migth know things better about it( DC 30).

So I guess the DC itself makes a difference.