Pathfinder 2E Regarding the complexity of Pathfinder 2

[Thomas Shey]

You're essentially arguing the reason the early game is hard is because you think the devs are stuck in a PF1 mindset, using what to support your position?

That the last two D&D editions had the same exact problem for much the same reason? Basically, why would the Pathfinder people be immune to a problem that's common to the D&D end of the hobby?

In contrast, I'm reading the actual CRB; observing that the writers accurately follow it, and do so repeatedly;, concluding the culprit is how the CRB offers the same guidelines to all levels.

Case closed.

No, really not. Especially since some of the problems are things that are not about the CRB.

 

[Thomas Shey]

However, the combats we did have felt like they dragged, and the conversion work was a hassle. We didn’t finish tonight, but everyone really wanted to finish the adventure, so we’ll finish it next session. That’ll give me a chance to fix the maps I couldn’t do in Dungeondraft. Afterward, I’d really like to reopen the conversation about trying something in OSE proper.

With no offense intended, can I mention how boggled I am at the thought of a PF2e combat feeling like it dragged. But then, I don't know anything about Old School Essentials, so if its a really stripped down combat system (which the name might imply) it may be that our expectations are just vastly different here.

 

[kenada]

I mean,I also don't know the module so it could be that it's an OSE thing and not really developed with those ideas in mind. I did a lot of PF1 to 5E converting and converting of any kind can be taxing on you, especially if the systems are very different.

I was speaking more about my GMing style. It’s not really the kind of game I run, but I wanted to acknowledge that it could be something PF2 needs to sing.

 

[kenada]

With no offense intended, can I mention how boggled I am at the thought of a PF2e combat feeling like it dragged. But then, I don't know anything about Old School Essentials, so if its a really stripped down combat system (which the name might imply) it may be that our expectations are just vastly different here.

OSE is a B/X retroclone. It’s something I keep wanting to run with my group, but my players always worry about dying all the time, so we balk at it. This is the closest we’ve come.

Honestly, thinking about it, only one fight that really stuck out as slow, and it was still only a couple of rounds long. Everyone rolled like garbage the first round, and players weren’t doing a good job of using their abilities. I wouldn’t call it a systemic issue. Things just felt kind of off at the time.

 

[dave2008]

Also the edition where there was the least intrinsic difference between spellcasters and non-spellcasters.

Yep. I think PF2 is similar in this regard?

I'll bet they had to work to do that, however, or you'd have been going through them like slaw. I don't mean to be offensive, but even OD&D GMs running primarily outdoor adventures always seemed to set things so that you had to work to run into something significantly over their head. If that's not you, you're an incredible outlier.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but they essentially went left instead of going right. That was the extent of them having to "work" to get into that encounter. Though they did disregard some hints that there was something powerful in the swamp. Of course, I always prefer to be an outlier

Well, obviously, if you compress things then there's less need to do deliberate balance because there's less gap in the first place.

Yep. However, it makes the unknown dragon really dangerous!

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I think uncovering what exactly the various best practices are for Pathfinder 2e (what kind of games best leverage the system, specifically not the only way to run a fun pathfinder 2e game) is probably still ahead of us, I've been thinking for a while that we're due for some cultural change in how these games are played, with the resurgence in old school interest-- but ambivalence to everything that comes with.

I suspect its a 'hybrid' between the old school and new school: high character customization, surprising lethality, reintroduction of proper procedures for exploration and such, characters are still very competent.

That could just be my bubble though, either way, I think its a play style Pathfinder 2e heavily supports and might very well take hold, I'm actually very interested in the dungeon centric adventures (Dead God's Hand, Abomination Vaults) coming up for this reason.

 

[CapnZapp]

That the last two D&D editions had the same exact problem for much the same reason? Basically, why would the Pathfinder people be immune to a problem that's common to the D&D end of the hobby?

"D&D heroes are more frail at the lowest levels" is a truism and I'm not discussing that. Saying the last two D&D editions had this exact problem is grossly relativizing. I'm discussing the specific extra deadly nature of PF2, especially at early levels.

At this point I think I'm done discussing this with you.

 

[nevin]

I think uncovering what exactly the various best practices are for Pathfinder 2e (what kind of games best leverage the system, specifically not the only way to run a fun pathfinder 2e game) is probably still ahead of us, I've been thinking for a while that we're due for some cultural change in how these games are played, with the resurgence in old school interest-- but ambivalence to everything that comes with.

I suspect its a 'hybrid' between the old school and new school: high character customization, surprising lethality, reintroduction of proper procedures for exploration and such, characters are still very competent.

That could just be my bubble though, either way, I think its a play style Pathfinder 2e heavily supports and might very well take hold, I'm actually very interested in the dungeon centric adventures (Dead God's Hand, Abomination Vaults) coming up for this reason.

I think it's always been a big minority of Pathfinder players. The ones that like the Tactical focus of the game. I don't think it will ever be a mainstream playstyle or ever threaten "Old school" , or "New School" . I think it'll be like shadow run or gurps a solid niche fixture in the eco system

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yep. I think PF2 is similar in this regard?

No. There are some elements of how spellcasting works that have been tuned up some (particularly how it interacts with the three action system, and how spells deal with levels) but otherwise its not vastly different from PF1e or D&D3 in overall shape. You still have a lot of resource management that isn't generally present with non-spellcasters, and there's still a limited amount that magic items will do for you as a spellcaster in terms of direct spell effectiveness boosts (not none, but not nearly the difference it is for fighting types). Probably the most directly impactful are wands and things which give, effectively, another spell slot of various sorts.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but they essentially went left instead of going right. That was the extent of them having to "work" to get into that encounter. Though they did disregard some hints that there was something powerful in the swamp. Of course, I always prefer to be an outlier

The "disregarding hints" part is what I was referring to.

Yep. However, it makes the unknown dragon really dangerous!

It depends. Is he compressed too?

(This was an issue people sometimes don't get about really old school D&D; while you didn't want to do the equivalent of the old-red-dragon-versus-first-levellers thing I mentioned (because it was entirely possible if they didn't see that coming for everyone to be in a breath weapon and therefor dead right in the first round, and even if they didn't it was unlikely there was much they could do unless they ran immediately and the dragon didn't decide to pursue), the gap between higher level monsters and lower level PCs was not as profound as it was by at least the D&D3 era.

 

[Thomas Shey]

"D&D heroes are more frail at the lowest levels" is a truism and I'm not discussing that. Saying the last two D&D editions had this exact problem is grossly relativizing. I'm discussing the specific extra deadly nature of PF2, especially at early levels.

At this point I think I'm done discussing this with you.

That's your business. My point was that there are reasons to believe that the first two APs suffered from exactly the same problems the earliest 3e and 4e D&D adventures did, and that none of the three did to the same degree later. So I consider drawing much conclusion from those two APs extremely dubious. If the same problem is still occurring in the most recent two, that's a useful data point; the other isn't.