Reincarnate and ECL

[Szordrin]

I recently had a player who was reincarnated. Upon casting the spell a 00 was rolled which specifies DM option on what to bring back the character as. I chose to bring back the character as a Deep Gnome (ECL +3). Before death, the character was 10th level (non-ECL). As per the rules on losing a level after dying, I set the characters experience to halfway between 9th and 10th level. When I did this all the other players bitched saying that the player essentially got 3 levels for free. They argued that the experience should be set to halfway between 9th and 10th level for a non-ECL character which would have made the character a 6th level deep gnome (halfway to 7th level). This was of course unacceptable to the player being reincarnated (who wants to lose 4 levels from dying?). After much arguement I just decided to bring the character back as the original race. I'm wondering what other people think on the matter. Are there actually rules that make it clear what to do?

This, I think, brings up a larger issue which is the whole concept of ECL characters. My take is that they are pretty powerful at low levels but as you get high in levels they become less effective (when compared to normal races X levels higher).

 

[kreynolds]

I'm wondering what other people think on the matter.

In Savage Speciecs, you use the new ECL of a transformed character to determine how much XP they need to advance to the next level. If you are reincarnated and come back as an ECL race, the ECL should be immediately applied. At the same time, it shouldn't be applied. Why? If you apply the ECL modifier to the reincarnated character to determine when they can gain their next level, the player is likely to get pissed, or at least frustrated. If you don't apply the ECL, everyone else is likely to get pissed, or at least frustrated. It's a doubled-edged sword.

ECL templates and reincarnation are fine if everyone in the party ends up being roughly the same ECL, but if there is an offset, it's probably going to upset the other players. More importantly though, it will upset the balance of power in the party, and that is a real concern for a DM.

Are there actually rules that make it clear what to do?

If you have savage species, refer to that. The whole purpose of that book is to show you how to use ECLs (or more appropriately, level adjustments), and the book stresses that they should be used. Whether or not you do, however, is up to you, as there is nothing in the core rules that says anything one way or the other.

Personally, I enforce ECLs.

This, I think, brings up a larger issue which is the whole concept of ECL characters. My take is that they are pretty powerful at low levels but as you get high in levels they become less effective (when compared to normal races X levels higher).

I agree. For example, take a look at the paragon template. Spell-like abilities are pretty powerful if you can cast them before a spellcaster of equivalent level to your hit die can cast them. Therefore, the paragon template has a higher CR modifier when added to a low hit die creature. If the creature has a lot of hit die, say 16, then the ability to cast dispel magic is not so impressive, and it no longer warrants a high level adjustment either. Savage Species warns about this, that when you are trying to come up with a level adjustment for a special ability, make sure that you take into account its usefulness at higher levels.

For example, if you gain the ability to cast magic missile as a 5th level caster, and you only have 1 hit die, that's pretty powerful. However, if the caster level never changes, the ability becomes next to useless at higher levels, so it the level adjustment should be low to begin with to take this into account.

 

[hammymchamham]

I chose to bring back the character as a Deep Gnome (ECL +3).

May I ask why a Svirfneblin? I mean, I LOVE them, and if I ever have this happen will do the same, but why did you choose one?

 

[LokiDR]

I don't apply ECLs for reincarnate because you may end up a badger. You get chance at something good or bad. If it was DM choice, I would pick something off the table. If you go of that table, other than some other animals, you are asking for problems.

Other than that, I agree with K. Savage species is your best bet.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I generally don't beleive in adding ECL in game. For reincarnate its random, and has a in gam cost already death. Other templates have other costs like the liches monetary and XP cost. I jsut don't see the need for the +ECL. I don't add a +ECL because someone had better equipment(the party divided things in a way I didn't expect) and that has just as much or more of an effect on power than coming back as a bear/pixie or whatever.

 

[Pielorinho]

I'd suggest allowing the PC to enter the deep gnome race-based class, sorta like the monster classes in Savage Species (note that I've only seen SS's Web enhancement so far).

Basically, start the little fella off with the physical ability score adjustments (-2 str, +2 dex), the racial skill adjustments, and darkvision. If he takes a level of svirfneblin, he develops stonecunning and the spell-like abilities. At the second level of svirfneblin, he acquires the +4 dodge bonus and the continuous nondetection. At the third level of svirfneblin, he develops the spell resistance and saving throw bonus.

In general, I think this is the approach I'd take with reincarnation: if at all possible, divide the benefits of powerful creatures up into several levels, representing a character's increasing familiarity with her new form. A character who wants to focus on, say, her monkish studies won't ever learn to develop her innate dodge bonus; another character can spend her time learning to use her new form to its fullest potential.

Daniel

 

[kreynolds]

I don't add a +ECL because someone had better equipment(the party divided things in a way I didn't expect)...

I don't either, but that's because I keep a close eye on everyone's equipment to make sure that everyone is close to the same power level. It can be slightly cumbersome at times, but not too bad.

 

[Szordrin]

Re: Re: Reincarnate and ECL

May I ask why a Svirfneblin? I mean, I LOVE them, and if I ever have this happen will do the same, but why did you choose one?

The character was originally a good dwarf and he was killed in the Underdark. It seemed appropriate given the circumstances.

 

[Szordrin]

Re: Re: Reincarnate and ECL

If you have savage species, refer to that. The whole purpose of that book is to show you how to use ECLs (or more appropriately, level adjustments), and the book stresses that they should be used. Whether or not you do, however, is up to you, as there is nothing in the core rules that says anything one way or the other.

I don't have the savage species book yet but it sounds like I may need to check it out. Thanks for the info.

 

[melkoriii]

I got myself a copy and think its pretty good.

I realty like that they have race lvls of the monsters. It makes it so you can play a Minotaur at lvl 4 instead of lvl 9. At the lvl 4 you are just a very young Minotaur and don’t have the size, Str, Con of a Adult Minoaur. As Time goes by you take lvls of the race to mature your character and make him an Adult, getting all the benefits of a adult. This allows for the ECL to not jump +8 at one time.


In one game I play in we ran into a similar problem.

Character was lvl 4 and had a custom template added. ECL+3. Now the Character is ECL 7 but has the EP of a lvl 4 character. So Does he get the Character lvl 6 feat? Will he at his next lvl get his attribute bonus for lvl 8?

Does he have to wait the 40k+ exp till he can lvl?