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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 1569202" data-attributes="member: 177">Yes, well, the problem here is that you've yet to tell us what you are looking for.&nbsp; You wave your hands and say, that RPGs can be much more, but you've not told us in what way.&nbsp; Please pardon us if we then have to guess, and we guess incorrectly.&nbsp; We are rather limited by your vague approach.For example - right here you say that RPGs could gain a wider audience if they did what they do best better.&nbsp; But you don't tell us what you think they do best.&nbsp; Until you put down a list, in clear and unambiguous language, we will find it difficult to discuss the point with you cogently.As you already seem to note - the very first introduction is with the name.&nbsp; You argue against using the term &quot;game&quot; because (in you opinion) it gives the wrong idea even before they ever see the actual activity.&nbsp; I've already pointed out that the word &quot;hobby&quot; does the same exact thing - it gives the wrong idea before they ever see the activity.So, what we are then faced with is a choice between the lesser of two evils.&nbsp;&nbsp; Pardon if we differ in opinion on which is the lesser.Of course they can learn.&nbsp; The point, however, is that before they learn, the term has little information for them.&nbsp; They will then turn to the other terms for their information.&nbsp; &quot;Hobby&quot; tells them little to nothing about the contents of the activity.&nbsp; And what it does say they may not like. So, it does nothing to draw them to it.&nbsp; &quot;Game&quot; does tell them something, and it's something that's generally viewed positively by the audience, rather than neutrally or negatively.&nbsp; As a marketing point, &quot;game&quot; is a better advertisement than &quot;hobby&quot;.Because, despite your protestations, it is not the wrong word.&nbsp; With the small problem of emphasis of the win condition, which they can unlearn easily enough, the term fits rather nicely.&nbsp; You focus very much on the connotations you feel are negative.&nbsp; You seem to disregard the negative or innacurate connotations of &quot;hobby&quot;.&nbsp; You say calling it a game limits possibilities.&nbsp; You seem to miss the fact that calling it a hobby similarly limits possibilities.Given that you've been so vague about what it is about RPGs you want emphasized, perhaps you should go first in answering that question.&nbsp; Interesting.&nbsp; Because, if you ask the designers of D&amp;D, the rules are also there to make things equal and fair - that's what &quot;game balance&quot; is about.&nbsp; It has been seen that without it, many people are put off by the activity.In any event, what the rules are there to do is not the issue.&nbsp; All that's required to be a game are rules that control, focus and/or mediate what happens in play.&nbsp; And RPG rules do exactly that.Yes, it is, actually.&nbsp; To you, who do it a great deal, it seems simple.&nbsp; But modern folk are used to their fiction as passive entertainment, or very tightly scripted as it is in some video games.&nbsp; They stop playing games of role-assumption pretty early in life.&nbsp; What you suggest is pretty strange stuff as a leisure activity.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 1569202, member: 177"] Yes, well, the problem here is that you've yet to tell us what you [i]are[/i] looking for. You wave your hands and say, that RPGs can be much more, but you've not told us in what way. Please pardon us if we then have to guess, and we guess incorrectly. We are rather limited by your vague approach. For example - right here you say that RPGs could gain a wider audience if they did what they do best better. But you don't tell us what you think they do best. Until you put down a list, in clear and unambiguous language, we will find it difficult to discuss the point with you cogently. As you already seem to note - the very first introduction is with the name. You argue against using the term "game" because (in you opinion) it gives the wrong idea even before they ever see the actual activity. I've already pointed out that the word "hobby" does the same exact thing - it gives the wrong idea before they ever see the activity. So, what we are then faced with is a choice between the lesser of two evils. Pardon if we differ in opinion on which is the lesser. Of course they can learn. The point, however, is that before they learn, the term has little information for them. They will then turn to the other terms for their information. "Hobby" tells them little to nothing about the contents of the activity. And what it does say they may not like. So, it does nothing to draw them to it. "Game" does tell them something, and it's something that's generally viewed positively by the audience, rather than neutrally or negatively. As a marketing point, "game" is a better advertisement than "hobby". Because, despite your protestations, it is not the wrong word. With the small problem of emphasis of the win condition, which they can unlearn easily enough, the term fits rather nicely. You focus very much on the connotations you feel are negative. You seem to disregard the negative or innacurate connotations of "hobby". You say calling it a game limits possibilities. You seem to miss the fact that calling it a hobby similarly limits possibilities. Given that you've been so vague about what it is about RPGs you want emphasized, perhaps you should go first in answering that question. Interesting. Because, if you ask the designers of D&D, the rules are also there to make things equal and fair - that's what "game balance" is about. It has been seen that without it, many people are put off by the activity. In any event, what the rules are there to do is not the issue. All that's required to be a game are rules that control, focus and/or mediate what happens in play. And RPG rules do exactly that. Yes, it is, actually. To you, who do it a great deal, it seems simple. But modern folk are used to their fiction as passive entertainment, or very tightly scripted as it is in some video games. They stop playing games of role-assumption pretty early in life. What you suggest is pretty strange stuff as a leisure activity. [/QUOTE]

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