Relatively new WotC prestige classes

I was looking at the Draconomicon and Complete Warrior, and wasn't too impressed. I was wondering if I was just biased, having written From Novice to Master, or if others who have read the material feel the same? I thought the Dragon Slayer in the Draconomicon was done pretty poorly (not on par with even Mongoose's version, much less Heathen Oracle's) and in the Complete Warrior, the duelist was pretty bland (and still a prestige class---I think it should warrant a full 1-20 levels class which is how I designed the class for From Novice to Master (you don't become a master and one with a weapon by starting out as a warrior or whatever, meeting prereqs---you train with that weapon from an early age and forgo other opportunities in order to gain the abilities of a duelist, in my opinion---maybe it could and should be done both ways, but I think as a full career class, the idea of a duelist is more fully embodied). They also had a class sort of like our crypt tracker, but again, it didn't seem as impressive. Overall, the artwork was lacking for the new pres. classes, but there were two outstanding artists. The prestige classes themselves had an angle or two I wish I had thought of (like hog-tie for the bounty hunter, but we have our quick-cuff. Still, I wish I had included versions of both), but I think our classes hit far more angles and show more depth than the WotC versions. I think they should have been a bit more innovative, and have a lot to learn from the smaller companies, like Monte's Malhavoc (though that's probably the 'top' of the small companies), which show a lot of thought and insight and has the rather cool idea of "suites" for a paladin type of prestige class (which I may blatantly steal in the future ;) ).
 

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You might not have noticed, but Prestige Classes (PrCs) are beginning to become a fading hype...

Too often PrCs are the optimum choice, the requirements are far to tied to game mechanics instead of roleplaying requirements. People start to feel that their characters are weak because they haven't taken a PrC, give me one reason why i shouldn't become an Archmage at 13th level, the DMG sure as hell doesn't!

PrCs are becomming less, and with less i mean less interesting, they aren't anything special anymore, they are just like a new feat or a new spell, a dime a dozen. You want to know how to make PrCs interesting? Take a look at FFGs Legendary Classes, characters need to fulfill Quests to be able to qualify for the Legendary Classes (the Classes themselves are a bit more powerfull then average, although some of the DMG PrCs are pretty strong all by themselves).

Same goes for new Classes, far to often these are nothing more then weak reflections of the other Core Classes, often not very inspiring. Most of these 'new' classes could have been achieved by a combo of feats.

Then i come to the feats, these are the new building blocks, with the right combo/string of feats you can pretty much create most of the PCs.

I would rather prefer that someone for once disassembled all (ok, most) of the prestige classes and convrted them to feat trees. Maybe even grant people special abilities when they have the right combo of feats (maybe such abilities could be handed out as rewards for quests). If someone else doesn't do this soon, i'll do it myself!
 
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You might not have noticed, but Prestige Classes (PCs) are beginning to become a fading hype...

Too often PCs are the optimum choice, the requirements are far to tied to game mechanics instead of roleplaying requirements. People start to feel that their characters are weak because they haven't taken a PC, give me one reason why i shouldn't become an Archmage at 13th level, the DMG sure as hell doesn't!

*If you don't meet the prereqs, that would be one reason. If you don't want to give up a high level spell slot for an ability, that'd be another. I think an example in the book is you can give up a 9th and 5th level spell slot to cast fireball six times per day. It comes down to a player asking himself if this is worth it. Some may not want to give up a 9th and 5th level spell for the offensive capability of using fireball six times per day. But, it's nice the option is there for those who qualify and want to do it. I realize the archmage can do more than just the extra fireballs, but that's just an example.


PCs are becomming less, and with less i mean less interesting, they aren't anything special anymore, they are just like a new feat or a new spell, a dime a dozen. You want to know how to make PCs interesting? Take a look at FFGs Legendary Classes, characters need to fulfill Quests to be able to qualify for the Legendary Classes (the Classes themselves are a bit more powerfull then average, although some of the DMG PCs are pretty strong all by themselves).

*That's a nice idea, completing a quest. I like that. But that's a legendary class, and I'm not familiar with their rule system, but is that more powerful than most prestige classes? I think in From Novice to Master, there is only one instance where a certain adventurous act had to be completed before qualifying for the prestige class.

Same goes for new Classes, far to often these are nothing more then weak reflections of the other Core Classes, often not very inspiring. Most of these 'new' classes could have been achieved by a combo of feats.

*I think I've avoided this in From Novice to Master. I think the supernatural qualities of the new classes keep them from being pigeonholed into merely a combo of the other classes and a selection of feats.

Then i come to the feats, these are the new building blocks, with the right combo/string of feats you can pretty much create most of the PCs.

*I'm not sure I agree with that. I guess some could, but offhand I can think of a few, like the somniomancer that couldn't be accomplished with feats. I guess it would be more the supernatural prestige classes that could not be accomplished, unless someone came up with supernatural feats for each supernatural ability, but even then, like the somniomancer, there's a state of conciousness to consider. I think both feats and prestige classes have their places. Prestige classes have a list of additional prerequisites to meet (whatever the designer feels necessary), so they are more than just a list of feats. Not to mention that in taking a prestige class, you are forgoing opportunites in your previous class (like higher level abilities specific to that class). Also, for the most part, feats are acquired far more slowly than abilities gained for a specific class or prestige class ability, so there's a huge difference in game mechanics. In order to reduce prestige classes down to acquiring feats, you'd have to give the character a feat every level in some cases. You could do the 'combo' with class special abilities as well. As a game designer, I didn't realize there was a "hype" surrounding prestige classes. I just thought it was a game mechanic (albeit much more complex), like feats, or spells, to be creatively explored. Let me know if I've changed your mind, or if my logic is a little off, and why. Also, I understand your opinion is valid and likely represents a lot of gamers. Your gaming tastes dictate you'd rather just have feat trees, and go from there. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't think that all prestige classes can or should be boiled down to a mix of feats, and once they are, like I said, you'd need a feat a level to keep up with some prestige classes.

I would rather prefer that someone for once disassembled all (ok, most) of the prestige classes and convrted them to feat trees. Maybe even grant people special abilities when they have the right combo of feats (maybe such abilities could be handed out as rewards for quests). If someone else doesn't do this soon, i'll do it myself!

*Have fun, but I think it'll be difficult because of the slow rate at which feats are gained.
 
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*holding throbbing forehead*

Okay, please, first thing first: PCs are the player characters. PrCs are the Prestige Classes. :)

Second, use the quote tags: [ quote ] and [ /quote ] (without the unnecessary spaces, of course). It just makes it easier to distinguish what the heck is your comment and what you are quoting.

Shoot, when using the Quick Reply box, the fourth symbol on the right places quote tags around whatever you highlight.

Like this:
See?
 

Personally, I don't think it's the fault of the publishers that PrC's are uninteresting.

IMC, you can't enter a prestige class without the appropriate contacts. I list what prestige classes are known, and where they are known to exist; you have to actually go there and study with them to take them.

Some have other RP requirements for entry.

Flavor is the DM's job.
 

When I evaluate prestige classes, I look at how well they could fit into a campaign. I was actually happy to see more of the five-level PrCs in Complete Warrior. They're small and you can't progress in them in Epic levels, so they're nice small flavour which I can adapt to many different kinds of settings.

The big thing with PrCs is the ability for the GM to implement them in a campaign. A lot of the PrCs I've seen in both WotC and other books I'd never allow PCs to take, but I would find them very useful for NPCs.
 
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Vaxalon said:
Flavor is the DM's job.
So we don't have a use for all those campaign books. Sorry, but no. There's place for a paragraph or two about what the prestige class does, why not a paragraph about rp requirements (having to train with someone for example, training isn't a default mechanic in v3.5)? You want my explanation? Simple, because it's easier to fill pages with PrCs that use the basic DMG template, no thought required.

Personally, i pay as much for the crunch as for the fluff (if not more so, because all the crunch is OGC).
 

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