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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 7976144" data-attributes="member: 957">I truly believe this is a "squeaky wheel" thing.  I don't for a second dispute that a lot of people complained about the min/max aspects of 3X/PF.  But I am convinced that the people complaining about that were a much smaller portion of the fanbase than those who just quietly worked with the system and had a blast.  But if you are a designer who (A) spends a DECADE hearing those complaints and (B) has to anticipate these items every single time you design something new, then you are going to be very strongly influenced by this when you start over.But all the fans who didn't have issues didn't make their satisfaction well known.  So again, not at all denying the issues, but I think one side received way too much response.  So it goes.  I don't know how you can realistically avoid this.  Yeah.  This also meets the recycled talking points from the 4E era list.  4E was going to be huge "just as soon as everyone finished their current campaign."  It didn't happen.  When 5E came out, WotC didn't have to wait for people to finish their PF campaigns.  (I'm sure someone will insist their personal group was the meaningful exception).  5E was gangbusters and a bunch of PF players converted or just started new campaigns right away.The insane (awesome but insane) steady growth of 5E not withstanding, RPGs don't wait their turn and then start growing.  They catch an audience and hang on to their share until they start to slide.Probably true.  For now.  But we still don't know what is meaningful there.  And we can't.  There isn't any reason to assume that PF2E is doing much better than PF was doing when IT was the #2 RPG.  And it wasn't doing nearly well enough.  And I'm sure Paizo dumped a chunk of upfront investment in the development of PF2E.They sold a ton (compared to any other non 5E game) at release.  And they are still well ahead of that.  But on the other hand, they are well behind numerous OLD 5E modules.  Honestly, if they are truly happy with this, then THAT is a bad sign for the industry.  (And we know the industry is growing)</blockquote>

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