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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 7912834" data-attributes="member: 20564">How would I get rid of cantrips?  Well, I played many years of several editions of the game that did not have cantrips, and they add two huge steps forward that would need to be implemented in other ways in order for me to want to play without them.1. They made magical characters feel magical. Snapping their fingers to light a pipe, floating a drink over to them, etc. That adds a tone of flavor. Since this is basically at-will minor magics, I think you'll have a way to go to come up with something that IS effectively cantrips but does it better to convince me a change is worth it.2. They made casters useful when they weren't using slots.  They brought down the average power of the slots to keep them balanced. These are closely related.(I'm going to talk primarily in terms of damage spells, because attack cantrips are primarily damage.)It used to be that spells were more damaging, scaling with caster level. You only had a set number of slots per day, and combat for the day was more rounds than that. So you did high damage spells on rounds you cast a spell, and boring and likely pitiful damage even if you hit on the other rounds.So part of this is making casters feel magical and useful, doing something with magic instead of mundane attacks that they aren't good at and basically feel like nigh-wasted rounds.The other part is the power of the rest of the spells. Not counting the Warlock, cantrips do less damage then a primary weapon wielder of similar level. (NO, your cleric with a 16 STR and one attack at 7th level is not a primary weapon wielder.) We're looking for an total of the non-slot actions and the slot-using action during the day to add up to something reasonable. If the non-slot rounds are less powerful, then the slot-using rounds need to be more powerful, with increased damage/effect.But, if individual slots are more powerful, that means that groups that manage 15 minute adventuring days will find casters EVEN MORE powerful.There was another thread recently about balance, and my definition is that balance happens form a DM and the rules job was not to make it harder. Making inter-class balance more sensitive and swingy based on how length of adventuring day varies from table to table is a complete loss in that aspect.So, the second part of this is that we need to (a) give casters something magical to do, and (b) keep that the total damage doesn't drop by removing cantrips.This as my requirements for removing cantrips. Oh, I have a third but it doesn't have to do with cantrips so much as class design:3. Keep different classes different. In other words, if every class is a fighter, you only need one class. Don't make all the classes feel the same.So, with these criteria, let's look at the options:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Light armor prof?</li> </ul>This doesn't address any of the points.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Simple weapon/ short selection of martial weapons?</li> </ul>Attack and damage ability scores don't allow this to fit #2, and it's just like most classes so it doesn't fit #3.  Oh, and doesn't address #1 at all<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">More skills?</li> </ul>Also doesn't address any of the points.  It fulfils the utility of #1 without the magic part.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">extra attacks (at level 6, 7 or 8 or 11?)?</li> </ul>Much like weapon profs, does not give enough damage.  And like most.  Doesn't fit 2 & 3.  Oh, and doesn't address #1 at all<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Extra slots (+1 for spell level 1 to 4 ?)</li> </ul>Maybe.  But low level characters have very few slots, so they do a lot of cantrips.  So if a 1st level caster had, so say SIX to EIGHT 1st level slots, that would probably fit the second part of #2 as well as #3.  That's only 1 slot per recommended encounter, and still well underpowered in terms of weapon profs, armor profs, HPs, and focus on attack ability scores.  Spreading out over castable levels and reducing as they got higher level slots.  It minimizes non-slot rounds so we can forgive the first part of #2.  It doesn't really address #1, as we've seen historically that combat-resources are uncommonly used for non-combat needs, especially just "flavor" ones.  So that would still need to be addressed.</blockquote>

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