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5E removing cantrips: what to give instead?

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Lets say I wanted to remove cantrip because reasons. What would be a fair trade in term of power for the classes that get them?

  • Light armor prof?
  • Simple weapon/ short selection of martial weapons?
  • More skills?
  • extra attacks (at level 6, 7 or 8 or 11?)?
  • Extra slots (+1 for spell level 1 to 4 ?)
  • Something else
  • Mish mash of all of the above?

Its not a poll, its not a discussion about the reasons why someone like or not cantrips: its just a whiteroom design for now :)
 

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Lets say I wanted to remove cantrip because reasons. What would be a fair trade in term of power for the classes that get them?
A button that says "I stopped casting cantrips, ask me how!" ...not 'button..' … oh, right, 'ribbon.'

Honestly, casters have it so easy in 5e, you could take away Cantrips and/or Rituals - or even Slots, leaving only cantrips & rituals - and they'd still be viable.

….


Edit: Ok, you might want to let the Warlock keep his Eldritch Blast.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Given that cantrips are primarily used for combat...

I guess the question is: is the goal to make casters less "all day combat" capable?

If not, then weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies both make sense.

Extra slots for sure, regardless of why cantrips are removed.

I'd shy away from Extra attacks for the casters. That's just me.
 



Dausuul

Legend
As far as damage output goes, Extra Attack at level 5 or 6 would be a fair trade IMO. A crossbow does as well as a cantrip at low levels; Extra Attack would keep it competitive through level 10, and by level 11 you don't spend a lot of time casting cantrips anyway. Then maybe toss in an extra skill or two to compensate for the lost utility options.

That said, I think warlocks and sorcerers would need a bit of extra love. Those two classes rely much more heavily on cantrips than other casters.
 

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
I think the extra spell slots option would be best since full casters would want to rely on their spells (some more than others) and taking away cantrips means they have to rely more on their spell slots or go back to the old throwing of darts or using light crossbows.
 


prabe

Aspiring Lurker (He/Him)
Supporter
Without getting into the why, you'll probably want to address the interaction/s between cantrips and bonus-action spells.
 

Lets say I wanted to remove cantrip because reasons.
It occurs to me the reasons may matter.

Like, if the reasons include something along the lines of "at-will casting cheapens magic and makes it seem less magical" then giving them darts & crossbows &c to replace the light DPR grinding of cantrips would make sense. But, if it's the damage-grinding being undesireable, itself, that's the reason....

Also, the change needn't be to the classes. For instance, if you pull in the number of encounters/day from 6-8, that's the equivalent of giving more slots, because more rounds of each encounter can involve casting rather than plinking.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
As of now, I personally would go with something like this

Warlock: Eldritch Blast as a feature

Druid: + 1 spell slots when ''unlocking'' a new spell level for spell level 1 to 4

Cleric: Heavy armor or Resilience of the Pilgrim (+Con to AC when unarmored, no shield)
+ 1 spell slots when ''unlocking'' a new spell level for spell level 1 to 4

Wizard: 1+ Int mod weapon proficiencies, must be one handed without the special property.
+ 1 spell slots when ''unlocking'' a new spell level for spell level 1 to 4

Sorcerer: Simple weapons proficiency
+2 spell slots when unlocking a new spell level for spell level 1 an 2
+1 spell slots when unlocking a new spell level for spell level 3 and 4

Bard: Prof with medium armors (valor and sword gain heavy)
+ 1 spell slots when ''unlocking'' a new spell level for spell level 1 to 4

1/3 casters
+1 spell slots when unlocking a new spell level for spell level 1 an 2

Remove the limitation and let caster cast a bonus action spell + a leveled spell.
 
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vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
It occurs to me the reasons may matter.

Like, if the reasons include something along the lines of "at-will casting cheapens magic and makes it seem less magical" then giving them darts & crossbows &c to replace the light DPR grinding of cantrips would make sense. But, if it's the damage-grinding being undesireable, itself, that's the reason....

Also, the change needn't be to the classes. For instance, if you pull in the number of encounters/day from 6-8, that's the equivalent of giving more slots, because more rounds of each encounter can involve casting rather than plinking.
To be honest there's no real goal, I just wanted to know if people had ever thought about it. I guess I can understand the ''cantrip make magic cheap'' argument, but I personally dont mind all that much.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
Casters used to get by just fine with no cantrips, and they could do it again. I might leave something prestidigitation in as an at-will class feature, and then yeah, light crossbows and darts, sure. Extra skills would be fine too, maybe three instead of two. Give the Bards shields, and all clerics get HA. I think casters would be fine.
 

prabe

Aspiring Lurker (He/Him)
Supporter
As of now, I personally would go with something like this

Warlock: Eldritch Blast as a feature

Wizard: 1+ Int mod weapon proficiencies, must be one handed without the special property.
+ 1 spell slots when ''unlocking'' a new spell level for spell level 1 to 4

Sorcerer: Simple weapons proficiency
+2 spell slots when unlocking a new spell level for spell level 1 an 2
+1 spell slots when unlocking a new spell level for spell level 3 and 4

Bard: Prof with medium armors (valor and sword gain heavy)
+ 1 spell slots when ''unlocking'' a new spell level for spell level 1 to 4

1/3 casters
+1 spell slots when unlocking a new spell level for spell level 1 an 2

Remove the limitation and let caster cast a bonus action spell + a leveled spell.
Those seem ... reasonable, at least. I'd have to think about them a little bit. There may also be some spells that got turned into cantrips somewhere along the way, that you might want to make leveled spells again.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
More specific:

New level 1 spells:
Spare the Dying: Ally stabilize, regain consciousness after 10 minutes.
Light: As the cantrip, +10 ft per slot
Mage Hand: as the cantrip, 15 lbs instead
Shillelagh: as the cantrip, +1d8 per 2 slots
Shocking grasp: as the cantrip, 2d8 damage +1d8 per slot
Chill touch: as the cantrip, 2d8 damage +1d8 per slot
True Strike: +10 to hit on next attack next turn, +1d6 force damage on a hit, +1d6 per slot
Vicious Mockery: 15 ft cone, 2d4 damage + disadvantage on next attack, +1d4 per slot
Ray of Frost: 2d8, half on save, +1d8 per slot


Clerics
Nature: level 1, gain 2 druid spell of its choice that can be prepared as normal cleric spell
Arcane: level 1, can scribe wizard rituals a prepare them as cleric spell
Light: gain the spell light, can cast it for free Wis mod times per long rest without spell slots
Grave: gain the spell spare the dying, can cast it for free Wis mod times per long rest without spell slots at 30' as a bonus action.

Cleric that gain Potent Spellcasting gain Divine Strike.

Druid
Land: Can spend wildshape to regain a 1st level spell.

Wizard
Evocation: A creature that save against your evocation spell or that you miss with a spell attack take damage equal to your Int mod from the same type as the spell.
War Wizard: After using Arcane Deflection, you can only use spell at their lower level until the end on your next turn.
 
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Saelorn

Hero
When I got rid of cantrips, I gave them a special weapon attack that scaled with maximum spell slot. It's basically Sneak Attack, minus one or two d6, of an energy type that's appropriate to the class. Wizards deal force damage, Clerics get radiant, Warlocks are necrotic.
 

aco175

Hero
Cantrips are mostly for combat and some utility. To not have the cantrips I would think something like a power that affects your weapon. Maybe my staff attacks gain +1d6 element of my choice. Maybe it can shoot a bolt of 'magic'. My dagger magically returns when thrown. Stuff like this.

There could be a fixed power and you gain more s you level or a list you pick from as you go up in level.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Lets say I wanted to remove cantrip because reasons. What would be a fair trade in term of power for the classes that get them?

  • Light armor prof?
  • Simple weapon/ short selection of martial weapons?
  • More skills?
  • extra attacks (at level 6, 7 or 8 or 11?)?
  • Extra slots (+1 for spell level 1 to 4 ?)
  • Something else
  • Mish mash of all of the above?

Its not a poll, its not a discussion about the reasons why someone like or not cantrips: its just a whiteroom design for now :)
I'd probably just make wands and staffs with a few charges of low level spells on them more common.
 


Undrave

Hero
Well... Two cantrips are worth a Fighting -style so that's a metric. Two Cantrip and a Level 1 Spell slot is equal to a feat... So there's something to see there... So proficiency can work i guess...
 

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