D&D (2024) Bard as 2/3 caster.

they wanted rangers, paladins and warlocks to have their cool special class features, but all those features ended coded as spells...
Hmmh. I think they were stuck with that at some point.
Maybe having ranger and paladin as 1/3 caster would have been better.

After seeing the spell list of ranger, removing concentration and bonus action at some point from HM seems appropriate.
 

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Horwath

Legend
Hmmh. I think they were stuck with that at some point.
Maybe having ranger and paladin as 1/3 caster would have been better.
oh, please no.

I hate 1/3rd casting on EK/AT.
it scales so slowly and any decent spells come to little, too late for 99% of campaigns.

what they needed to do is buff EK/AT to half caster and all other subclasses with that math.

it's not like fighter and rogue fared well in 2014.
After seeing the spell list of ranger, removing concentration and bonus action at some point from HM seems appropriate.
we had half of that in UA, but it seems it was voted out as overpowered.
 



oh, please no.

I hate 1/3rd casting on EK/AT.
it scales so slowly and any decent spells come to little, too late for 99% of campaigns.

what they needed to do is buff EK/AT to half caster and all other subclasses with that math.

it's not like fighter and rogue fared well in 2014.
i would've been interested in at least seeing how well 1/3rd casters could've been if they'd instead had a vastly larger quantity of their lower tier spell slots, so rather than an EK/AT ending up as 4-3-3-2 it was more (throwing example numbers at the wall here) 7-5-5-3
 

you say it's weak, but what would you say is the greatest point of failure in my design(other than as you say in the other half of your post 'if you don't have anything you're particularly good at, you are mechanically weak')? and how would you fix it?
It has a mediocre to bad AC, very very low DPR and control - possibly the lowest real DPR of any class in the entire game, and has poor spellcasting capabilities.

I mean, what else is there to say re: point of failure? Its single point of failure is that it's underpowered compared to other 5E classes. It's crap at all trades. 5E isn't a game that plays nice with that kind of design - it just leaves you worse at everything than other people in the party, and with nothing unique to make up for it. You didn't even bother giving them unique abilities or really enhancing the one they have - you just drafted in a rather random-seeming selection of minor abilities from other classes - most them ironically more magical than the magic you took away from it, just mechanically weaker.

How would I fix it? You have to give it something no-one else can do and that's really good. Significantly buffing Bardic Inspiration would be a good way to do that. Making you able to burn spell slots to get it doesn't do that - in most cases a single spell of any level will do more than Inspiration - that should probably be a Lore Bard specific ability or something you get at higher levels. Instead give Bards more Bardic Inspiration, refresh it more often, and allow it to do more things - stealing stuff like Cutting Words from subclasses would be a good idea. Look at 4E Leaders and Controllers for examples if you want (the 4E Bard is a good example). Make it into a real class feature that's a serious distinguishing mark, not just a minor thing it can do. And allow Bards to self-buff with it more so they aren't just "the worst" in combat. You'd have to redesign the subclasses, but you'd obviously have to do that anyway.

Starting magic at L1 won't make it necessarily much more powerful, but it will mean it's now a correct 5E 2024 design, rather than a 2014 one. It WotC designed like that people would literally never stop asking why. And you don't even have an answer - tradition isn't an answer when even half-casters get spells at L1 now. Only classes which solely get magic from subclasses have it delayed beyond L1.
 

Naw, they should start as 1st level spellcasters at 9th level just because a chart in an older edition. /sacrasm ;-)
If you want to give them class features instead of spells, why not?

Or donyou want to add a lot of features and retain all their spellcasting?

Giving ranger class features instead of spells was the suggestion I answered to.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
In my home brew they're short rest more like warlock.

But their sings are generally bonus action when it comes to buffing or healing. Less spells more music.

Sone of thr songs deal damage or ate offensive. They require an action.

So you can bonus action "bless" (no concentration required) and then cast a spell.
 

Ashrym

Legend
If you want to give them class features instead of spells, why not?

Or donyou want to add a lot of features and retain all their spellcasting?

Giving ranger class features instead of spells was the suggestion I answered to.
Giving class features instead of spells works, but ignores the point. Looking only at a table ignores the context of the rest of the features of a class to create an inaccurate assessment of that class.

I'm a fan of using multiclassing to create variations for the character concept. Like in the OP, the easiest way to reduce a bard's spellcasting, like all spellcasters, is through the multiclassing method.

If I want a character that's more like a 2e bard then 1st level as a fighter with the entertainer background, 2nd level as a wizard, 3rd level as a rogue, 4th level as a wizard, 5th level as a wizard, 6th level as wizard, 7th level as a rogue, 8th level as a wizard, 9th level as a wizard, 10th level as a rogue, etc ending it with fighter 1 / rogue 8 / wizard 11. Use the thief subclass and the illusionist subclass. Expertise should include history and arcana.

That completely ignores the 2e caster level advantage bards had from the experience progression and bonus XP awards but that seems to be what some people want. It's basically how 2e bards worked, however, and the varied spell list can be included by swapping wizard out for land druid.

That's literally all it takes for an older style "bard" character.

Alternatively, there's nothing wrong with saying "5e bards don't fit my campaign style" and just banning the class at that table. Players can adapt.

Or ban the class at that table adding it as a background.

Bard
Ability Scores: Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma
Feat: Musician
Skill Proficiencies: Arcana, History
Tool Proficiency: Choose one kind of Musical Instrument

The ability scores match what we would expect from poets and philosophers, musician grants an inspiration ability, and those skills are the classic bardic knowledge / lore abilities. Also very easy to implement.

That's not what I see happening here. The fixation on taking a class that functions fine as is and recreating it in a format weaker than it's ever been (it's been 17 years since 3e ended, and the arguments ignore benefits like 2e caster level or 3e songs and similar spell level progressions to clerics or druids and relative comparisons to rangers or paladins) by focusing on old charts while ignoring context relating to those charts is just punching down on the class.

There's no gain in changing bards into weaker spellcasters because it's easily possible to make a character like that. There's only the loss of existing archetypes in expecting others to change bards too. Not recognizing all the benefits bards actually had in those systems seems like they didn't play or understand the bard mechanics under those systems and their expectation is that the only bard that should exist is a weak bard. That's a weird expectation. But another easy solution is to play those older systems or a retro clone.

The 5e bard works and has worked for a decade. The 2024 rules did adjust their spellcasting down by restricting some spell access and reducing the rate at which they gained high level spells known.

Now if it's a setting concern that's different. Bards or rangers or any other class should be reasonably capable for players. That doesn't mean reducing spellcasting for the sake of reducing spellcasting (which is what some posters seem to be doing on these boards) and the warlock chassis is a good way to go.

A bard spell list that uses rebranded pact magic, magical secrets that's rebranded bard spells magic arcanum, and powerful bard songs that replace invocations could work very well. The spells part is easy to maintain a thematic bard while further limiting access to high level spells; the work is in designing the songs. A person could call it "bardic training" and include songs plus other benefits.

Either way, the current bard also works well. ;-)
 

Giving class features instead of spells works, but ignores the point. Looking only at a table ignores the context of the rest of the features of a class to create an inaccurate assessment of that class.

I'm a fan of using multiclassing to create variations for the character concept. Like in the OP, the easiest way to reduce a bard's spellcasting, like all spellcasters, is through the multiclassing method.

If I want a character that's more like a 2e bard then 1st level as a fighter with the entertainer background, 2nd level as a wizard, 3rd level as a rogue, 4th level as a wizard, 5th level as a wizard, 6th level as wizard, 7th level as a rogue, 8th level as a wizard, 9th level as a wizard, 10th level as a rogue, etc ending it with fighter 1 / rogue 8 / wizard 11. Use the thief subclass and the illusionist subclass. Expertise should include history and arcana.
Which is what I wrote in the OP
That completely ignores the 2e caster level advantage bards had from the experience progression and bonus XP awards but that seems to be what some people want. It's basically how 2e bards worked, however, and the varied spell list can be included by swapping wizard out for land druid.
Which is what I layed out in detail before.
That's literally all it takes for an older style "bard" character.

Alternatively, there's nothing wrong with saying "5e bards don't fit my campaign style" and just banning the class at that table. Players can adapt.

Or ban the class at that table adding it as a background.

Bard
Ability Scores: Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma
Feat: Musician
Skill Proficiencies: Arcana, History
Tool Proficiency: Choose one kind of Musical Instrument

The ability scores match what we would expect from poets and philosophers, musician grants an inspiration ability, and those skills are the classic bardic knowledge / lore abilities. Also very easy to implement.

That's not what I see happening here. The fixation on taking a class that functions fine as is and recreating it in a format weaker than it's ever been (it's been 17 years since 3e ended, and the arguments ignore benefits like 2e caster level or 3e songs and similar spell level progressions to clerics or druids and relative comparisons to rangers or paladins) by focusing on old charts while ignoring context relating to those charts is just punching down on the class.

There's no gain in changing bards into weaker spellcasters because it's easily possible to make a character like that. There's only the loss of existing archetypes in expecting others to change bards too. Not recognizing all the benefits bards actually had in those systems seems like they didn't play or understand the bard mechanics under those systems and their expectation is that the only bard that should exist is a weak bard. That's a weird expectation. But another easy solution is to play those older systems or a retro clone.

The 5e bard works and has worked for a decade. The 2024 rules did adjust their spellcasting down by restricting some spell access and reducing the rate at which they gained high level spells known.

Now if it's a setting concern that's different. Bards or rangers or any other class should be reasonably capable for players. That doesn't mean reducing spellcasting for the sake of reducing spellcasting (which is what some posters seem to be doing on these boards) and the warlock chassis is a good way to go.

A bard spell list that uses rebranded pact magic, magical secrets that's rebranded bard spells magic arcanum, and powerful bard songs that replace invocations could work very well. The spells part is easy to maintain a thematic bard while further limiting access to high level spells; the work is in designing the songs. A person could call it "bardic training" and include songs plus other benefits.

Either way, the current bard also works well. ;-)
Which I agree with.
 

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