D&D (2024) Bard DON"T Suck. Tier List.

[Zardnaar]

2E bard rocked even with its 2/3rds casting. Xp tables. It topped out at lvl 6 spells.

 

[Zardnaar]

Font. Font of Moonlight, please.

Read the PHB it's Fount.

 

[ECMO3]

It's also a theory build. Try playing it from low level.

I probably am going to play it in a future game from level 1. My next character is either going to be this or a Warlock-Eldritch Knight. Right now I am playing a similar "Rogue" character, currently Paladin 1, Warlock 2, Arcane Trickster 4 that we started at level 1. I think she was equal or ahead of a straight Rogue in terms of damage at almost every single level so far.

The thing is with Agonizing Blast and Pact of Blade you get ahead of the damage curve at low level. Taking your Warlock and Paladin levels first; at level 3-4 you are actually better than most martials because of double Charisma bonus on damage and even level 5-8 when other martials have extra attack you are not far behind because you have cantrip scaling and more slots for smites. Using a Greataxe as a pact weapon at level 8 (1/2/5) you are looking at Green Flame Blade doing 1d12+1d8+8 to one target, which is not as good as a pure martial, but isn't far behind either, especially when you consider Divine Smite. If there happens to be another enemy in reach with Cleave added you are doing another 1d12+1d8+8 to that enemy. With Truestrike you have a pretty good ranged weapon too; 1d12+1d6+8 with a musket, doing quite a bit better than most melee builds would be doing with a ranged weapon. Then at level 9 you get the Valor Bard extra attack.

Here is the character I mentioned earlier:

D&D Beyond Character Sheet

The World's most intelligent Dungeons and Dragons Character Sheet.

www.dndbeyond.com

 

[Zardnaar]

I probably am going to play it in a future game from level 1. My next character is either going to be this or a Warlock-Eldritch Knight. Right now I am playing a similar "Rogue" character, currently Paladin 1, Warlock 2, Arcane Trickster 4 that we started at level 1. I think she was equal or ahead of a straight Rogue in terms of damage at almost every single level so far.

The thing is with Agonizing Blast and Pact of Blade you get ahead of the damage curve at low level. Taking your Warlock and Paladin levels first; at level 3-4 you are actually better than most martials because of double Charisma bonus on damage and even level 5-8 when other martials have extra attack you are not far behind because you have cantrip scaling and more slots for smites. Using a Greataxe as a pact weapon at level 8 (1/2/5) you are looking at Green Flame Blade doing 1d12+1d8+8 to one target, which is not as good as a pure martial, but isn't far behind either, especially when you consider Divine Smite. If there happens to be another enemy in reach with Cleave added you are doing another 1d12+1d8+12 to that enemy. With Truestrike you have a pretty good ranged weapon too; 1d12+1d6+8 with a musket, doing quite a bit better than most melee builds would be doing with a ranged weapon. Then at level 9 you get the Valor Bard extra attack.

Here is the character I mentioned earlier:

D&D Beyond Character Sheet

The World's most intelligent Dungeons and Dragons Character Sheet.

www.dndbeyond.com

Wife's doing something similar with true strike and celestial warlock.

But the fighter (she wanted to use polearms) passed in a great magic weapon which went to warlock so change of plans.

You have 13 strength?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

even the bard?

Yes, only the bard. It had 3e progression with bonus spells already factored in. While 3e gave wizards bonus spells for high int compared to 2e, the bard got less spells if their charisma was lower than 2e. Combined with faster level progressions for rogues in 2e and access to all wizard spells made bards in 3e way less powerful spellcasters. And they did not get a lot to compensate. Especially when 2e bard kits were very nicely done.

maybe, but there were bonus spell slots for high CHA and you could reasonably cheaply boost CHA in 3.5e

As explained above, for clerics it was as it always was. For wizards it was bonus spells. For bards it was mostly keeping up.

but with 5e mechanics, 2/3rd casting would not be that bad

I do agree to some extend. I forgot to mention that above. Spell DC depending on spell level made bards in 3e suck even more.

7th level spells, spell levels at class levels; 1/4/7/10/13/16/19

I'd play a bard with that progression if they got some nice extra abilities as compensation.

Note that bards were nerfed in some ways from 2014 to 2024 though.

They lost some weapon proficiencies (true strike makes up for that a bit), song of rest and some of the very powerful low level disables were nerfed (sleep, colour spray).

New magical secrets is not a lot better than the old one if you look closely.

What they really got was the ability to channel low level spell slots into bardic inspiration. Which makes them a bit less spellcasters and able to sustain their inspiration better.

 

[Ashrym]

College of Valor.

Well just going to state up front the Valor Bard is an S* tier archetype. The Asterix I will go into below. I don't think I need to go through how it's class features interact with 2-4 attacks or more a round combined with Conjure Minor Elementals. The only debate really is the when and how it becomes S tier. It's abilities.

Valor bards don't gain all the AC and all the attacks; there's a bit of either / or going on there. There's also an opportunity cost in taking CME regardless of it being a good damage choice. Damage isn't everything. ;-)

Level 3

Combat Inspiration.
Your bard dice can buff an allies attack rolls or debuff an opponents. I have seen this ability in use and it very rapidly becomes a shield effect with option to buff an attack. Indirectly nerfed with the removal of the -5/+10 feats. Overall still a very good ability.

That's misleading. Valor bards don't offer a debuff and have no way of directly using bardic inspiration on an opponent that way. Combat inspiration is only a buff to allies.

Martial Training
Weapons and armor. AC 17-19 or potentially higher and nartial weapons. Very good by itself and better than the dance bards ability in most situations (higher level and rolled stats change that).

Most martial weapons the valor bard would use are a minor damage boost. It's d8 vs d6 weapons. Like numbers of attacks, the better weapon damage options require giving up the AC bonus from the shield.

The armor training is good but there's a disadvantage conflict with half-plate that costs some bards that point of AC, and it can be marginalized by a DEX valor bard who has the same AC with light armor.

Extra Attack
As written on the can. Also you can cast a cantrip in place of one of those attack. For purists this means true strike in effect but can also include Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade. I will assume 2014 material is available.

Yup, valor got a good 6th level feature. All four 2024 bard subclasses have good 6th level features to match. Valor has cantrip spam built into extra attack, lore suddenly has the broadest spell access, dance has two good abilities, and glamour gains the ability to spam the command spell.

Level 14
Battle Magic.

Cast a spell extra attack. In effect a 3rd attack a round. If you know what you're doing it's a 4th attack a round.

This is also very good. But if you're still cantrip spamming you're not using actions on other spells and should be selecting spells with that in mind.

 

[Ashrym]

Lore Bard.

One of the previous S tier bards the Lore Bard in effect got nerfed. Both directly and indirectly. Magical discoveries and Secrets no longer allow you to get any spell you want. No more level 3 Paladin and Ranger spell at level 6. Or 5th level spells at 10.

That's an insignificant nerf. It's not like those other spell lists were what made (lore) bards good. ;-)

Magical secrets also let's you swap in spells every level 10+ which erodes the Lore Bards thing.

This was worse under 2014 because magical secrets did the exact same thing as extra secrets and was designed as additional spells within the progression table. Now magical secrets is just an expanded spell list for spell prep, but magical discoveries is still extra spells prepped plus allows cantrips.

That marginalization isn't noticeable until 15th or 17th level because of those changes. It's always two more spells prepped in any case, and we can only assume useful spells.

Level 3

Bonus Proficiencies
3 extra skills. Simple and effective. More skills is never bad.

That's minor foe a couple levels and +2 on three skills most of the game over jack of all trades.

Cutting Words
As a reaction Debuff incoming attacks. I like this ability a lot.

As a debuff this can be very useful. The bard can still only use it so often.

Level 6.
Magical Discoveries
2 spells of your choice from the cleric, wizard or Druid spell lists. Great ability but weaker than 2014 version. Lots of great contenders eg haste, fly, spiritual guardians.

I like guidance and prayer of healing; more skill buffing and the benefits of a short rest are handy. But there are many good choices.

Level 14
Peerless Skill.

Fail a skill check add a bard dice to the roll. A d10 minimum but d12 level 15+. Solid ability but very late and a bit underwhelming for level 14.

It also works on attack rolls so the bard doesn't miss with that truestrike or other attack spell. That could be steel wind strike and a bonus to every attack roll that misses if the bard wants. With CME or fount of moonlight up since you like damage. ;-)

It could be an upcast scorching ray too. The only limit is once per roll using bardic inspiration. That can change multiple misses into hits in a single turn.

 

[Ashrym]

2E bard rocked even with its 2/3rds casting. Xp tables. It topped out at lvl 6 spells.

Yes they did, but it was more. 2e clerics on average rolls could only cast 5th level spells and wizards 7th level spells. A player needed luck or an accommodating DM or to ignore the rules for higher level spells. All bards fit the caster mold based on caster level, typical max spell level, and that xp table.

Comparing 2e bards to paladin and ranger spellcasting is silly.

Same with 3.5 where the table isn't the whole picture. Bards were give iconic spells at different spell levels and inherently cast 8th level spells because of it, cast 9th level spells through PrC's, had a LOT of bard songs for magical abilities, the combination of songs plus slots was comparable to wizard slots, fascinate was the highest DC around, and they still cast spells at full caster level.

Comparing 3.5 bards to paladin and ranger spellcasting is still silly.

The only thing 5e did was standardize spell levels and combine 3e's songs and spells into the spell mechanic.

 

[ECMO3]

Wife's doing something similar with true strike and celestial warlock.

But the fighter (she wanted to use polearms) passed in a great magic weapon which went to warlock so change of plans.

You have 13 strength?

Yes my current P/W/R has a 13 strength, 16 Dex and 18 CH at level 7 (1/2/4)

Early on she used a Greataxe a lot, but at this point finesse weapons work better because of 2d6 sneak attack.

She does keep a War Pick with mastery for using when she does not qualify for sneak (getting sap).

 

[Zardnaar]

Cleric will be next.