Paul Farquhar
Legend
IMO dance bards should get a bonus action butt attack.
D&D (2024) Bard DON"T Suck. Tier List.
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
Zardnaar
Legend
Aware other bards can do it better via scorching ray or 4 attacks a round every round.
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Shadowdweller00
Adventurer
Valor Bards can sub out one of those attacks for a cantrip (e.g. Eldritch Blast or True Strike); Dance bards cannot.
And the only way I'm personally seeing Dance bards get that 4th attack is using a level or feat to get weapon mastery and THEN presuming an enemy gets within 5 feet and even THEN using both a reaction and bardic inspiration for it:
Main attack + Offhand attack (nick) + Offhand (bonus action) + hope an enemy moves within 5 feet for Agile Strike as a reaction.
Seeing as how using bardic inspiration on the Dance bard's turn normally uses a bonus action that would conflict with Two Weapon Fighting.
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Zardnaar
Legend
College of Valor.
Well just going to state up front the Valor Bard is an S* tier archetype. The Asterix I will go into below. I don't think I need to go through how it's class features interact with 2-4 attacks or more a round combined with Conjure Minor Elementals. The only debate really is the when and how it becomes S tier. It's abilities.
Level 3
Combat Inspiration.
Your bard dice can buff an allies attack rolls or debuff an opponents. I have seen this ability in use and it very rapidly becomes a shield effect with option to buff an attack. Indirectly nerfed with the removal of the -5/+10 feats. Overall still a very good ability.
Martial Training
Weapons and armor. AC 17-19 or potentially higher and nartial weapons. Very good by itself and better than the dance bards ability in most situations (higher level and rolled stats change that).
Extra Attack
As written on the can. Also you can cast a cantrip in place of one of those attack. For purists this means true strike in effect but can also include Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade. I will assume 2014 material is available.
Level 14
Battle Magic.
Cast a spell extra attack. In effect a 3rd attack a round. If you know what you're doing it's a 4th attack a round.
So the Valor bards class features plus Conjure Minor elements lends itself to lots of damage. There's lots of hypothetical builds but at level 10 it's 4d8 damage using a 5th level spell slot. Per attack. So somewhere between level 10 and 14 the class becomes S tier even with just the PHB single class only. We can nitpick when that happens.
However at level 7 a Valor Bard can cast fount of moonlight. It's still fairly absurd in melee and combines with true strike or the 2014 cantrips. I think the class still hits S tier around level 7 espicially with rolled stats and 2014 material.
The other reality is multiclasing. Not optional in 2014. This feeds into various dips and builds often well in excess of level 10. Eg Paladin 6/Bard ten or Paladin 2/Warlock 2/Bard 10. Most of these builds are hypothetical and don't count issues like keeping CME running. There's also MAD to consider. Heavy weapons are probably out due to the 13 strength requirement even a warlock dip doesn't fix.
However a single fighter level MCing into Bard is playable from level 1. That 1 level dip gives you proficiency in constitution saves, a weapon style feat and 2 weapon masteries being the important ones. Dexterity vs Charisma is also debatable but 16 dex and Charisma and 14 con is probably the way to go.
Is it fair considering multiclassing? That one level dip isn't theoretical and it's only a dip. Without it the class is still breaking the game but it's abilities are good from 3+ even if you only use the PHB. It also hits S tier early enough to matter vs various theory craft builds. I'm sure someone will nitpick this. Either way it's playable from level one and good from level 3. Basically it's S tier the when and how is debatable.
Well just going to state up front the Valor Bard is an S* tier archetype. The Asterix I will go into below. I don't think I need to go through how it's class features interact with 2-4 attacks or more a round combined with Conjure Minor Elementals. The only debate really is the when and how it becomes S tier. It's abilities.
Level 3
Combat Inspiration.
Your bard dice can buff an allies attack rolls or debuff an opponents. I have seen this ability in use and it very rapidly becomes a shield effect with option to buff an attack. Indirectly nerfed with the removal of the -5/+10 feats. Overall still a very good ability.
Martial Training
Weapons and armor. AC 17-19 or potentially higher and nartial weapons. Very good by itself and better than the dance bards ability in most situations (higher level and rolled stats change that).
Extra Attack
As written on the can. Also you can cast a cantrip in place of one of those attack. For purists this means true strike in effect but can also include Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade. I will assume 2014 material is available.
Level 14
Battle Magic.
Cast a spell extra attack. In effect a 3rd attack a round. If you know what you're doing it's a 4th attack a round.
So the Valor bards class features plus Conjure Minor elements lends itself to lots of damage. There's lots of hypothetical builds but at level 10 it's 4d8 damage using a 5th level spell slot. Per attack. So somewhere between level 10 and 14 the class becomes S tier even with just the PHB single class only. We can nitpick when that happens.
However at level 7 a Valor Bard can cast fount of moonlight. It's still fairly absurd in melee and combines with true strike or the 2014 cantrips. I think the class still hits S tier around level 7 espicially with rolled stats and 2014 material.
The other reality is multiclasing. Not optional in 2014. This feeds into various dips and builds often well in excess of level 10. Eg Paladin 6/Bard ten or Paladin 2/Warlock 2/Bard 10. Most of these builds are hypothetical and don't count issues like keeping CME running. There's also MAD to consider. Heavy weapons are probably out due to the 13 strength requirement even a warlock dip doesn't fix.
However a single fighter level MCing into Bard is playable from level 1. That 1 level dip gives you proficiency in constitution saves, a weapon style feat and 2 weapon masteries being the important ones. Dexterity vs Charisma is also debatable but 16 dex and Charisma and 14 con is probably the way to go.
Is it fair considering multiclassing? That one level dip isn't theoretical and it's only a dip. Without it the class is still breaking the game but it's abilities are good from 3+ even if you only use the PHB. It also hits S tier early enough to matter vs various theory craft builds. I'm sure someone will nitpick this. Either way it's playable from level one and good from level 3. Basically it's S tier the when and how is debatable.
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UngeheuerLich
Legend
The dance bard is not a fighter. It just gets some extra attacks.
I am 2 months and around 30 sessions into the 2024 rules, half of those sessions with hard core optimizers, and I have not seen the upcast CME boogey monster dominate combat in play even a single time.
I have seen several other 2024 rules abuses in play, but not this one.
IMO the handwringing over CME is generally more a thing for the message boards than actual games.
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Zardnaar
Legend
Has anyone tried? What level are you?
I could see an argument for S-tier, but I would stick with A. A big problem with Fount of Moonlight is the action casting time. Same with CME, although the potentially crazy high damage mitigates that some on CME.
If you are considering multiclasses this becomes S pretty quickly. A Paladin 1, Bladelock 2 with Agonizing Truestrike and Sword Cantrips, and the rest of the levels in Valor Bard is probably the best melee combatant in the game.
Zardnaar
Legend
Except keeping concentration
. I suppose you could take warcaster. Also from level 1 has issues.Fount of moonlight has 10 minute duration.
mellored
Legend
I don't expect it to be an issue until level 15 or 17.
It's perfectly fine as a level 4 slot, it's the scaling that's gets crazy.
And even then, you need to build around it (Valor 10/warlock 1).
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