D&D (2024) Bard as 2/3 caster.

[UngeheuerLich]

Bard as 2/3 caster with weapon masteries:

Level 1:
Fighter, entertainer
(AD&D bards used to have no spells at level 1, but solid weapon and armor proficiencies. And musical instruments and songs to buff people before combat.
3e bards only had cantrips.)

Level 2: bard 1
Level 3: bard 2
level 4: bard 3 (I propose lore bard, as in AD&D they were able to cast fireballs soon enough)
They used to get level 2 spells at level 4.
level 5: bard 4
ASI at level 4 to not fall behind other characters.

Level 6: Rogue level 1.
Bards should not get level 3 spells. So.
More skills. Bards were adapt at skill.

Level 7: bard 5
finally level 3 spells. Also becoming better at inspiring others.
Level 8: bard 6
Now they get their cool subclass ability. With my proposal, that means fireball and another useful wizard spell.

Level 9: fighter 2
Action surge and tactical mind helps with skills.

Level 10: bard 7. They should get level 4 spells here
level 11: bard 8
another ASI, true strike gets better.
level 12: Fighter 3
become either battlemaster and take inspiring maneuvers or become an eldritch knight.
level 13: bard 9. Level 5 spells.
Level 14: bard 10.
level 15: Fighter 4. ASI
level 16: bard 11. Level 6 spells.
level 17: bard 12. ASI
level 18: Fighter 5. Extra attack. Does not stack with true strike. But why not. Maybe you have access to haste. Or true strike is impossible.
level 19: fighter 6. If you read the epic boon feature just as a friendly reminder, that you can now pick epic boons. Pick epic boon with your ASI.
level 20: capstone is fighter level 7. If you were eldritch knight, you can now replace one attack with a spell.

 

[CreamCloud0]

just to clarify, is this meant to be a 20 level progression for a bard class simulated by multiclassing the official bard with fighter and rogue?

 

[CreamCloud0]

if you had done this outside the constraints of multiclassing, with the ability to pick and choose individual abilities outside of straight level progression do you think you would've done anything differently?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I have also though that bard should be a 2/3 caster. I think they conceptually are a jack of all trades, but currently they are weighted too heavily towards casting. Apart subclasses that grant them combat capability, their fighting prowess past early levels is pathetic. I think they should be somewhat less focused on casting so that they could be broadened into other directions.

I am not quite sure what is exactly proposed here though? Building such a bard via multiclassing? I guess it can work, though it seems unsatisfactory to me and I would rather just modify the class.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

just to clarify, is this meant to be a 20 level progression for a bard class simulated by multiclassing the official bard with fighter and rogue?

Yes.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

if you had done this outside the constraints of multiclassing, with the ability to pick and choose individual abilities outside of straight level progression do you think you would've done anything differently?

Yes. Probably. But I think that it is very easily possible to make a satisfactory 2/3 caster bard.

I have seen too many people claim, that bards need better abilities afrer level 10, more weapons. Weapon masteries.
Since multiclassing is a core part of 5e and in 2024, background feats can give you some abilities that help you feel like a different class, so you can start as a multiclass character. Probably fighter is the hardest one to simulate. So starting as a fighter with the right background seems like a good starting point for many concepts.

 

[CreamCloud0]

i tried putting together my own 2/3rds caster bard, thoughts?

BARD
-d8HD, -DEX and CHA save prof, -any 3 skills, -any 3 instruments, -disguise kit, -simple weapons, -light armour
Level 1
-bardic inspiration (d6), -weapon mastery (2)
Level 2
-spellcasting (cantrips, 1st level), -jack of all trades, -expertise (2)
Level 3
-[subclass feature], -psi-bolstered knack/psychic whispers (soulknife rogue(uses bardic inspiration)),
Level 4
-ASI, -primal order (druid(magician option uses CHA instead of WIS)), -half of font of inspiration (recover a bardic inspiration by expending a spell slot)
Level 5
-bardic inspiration (d8), -spellcasting (2nd level), -magical discoveries (2(lore bard)), -extra attack
Level 6
-[subclass feature], -starry form (stars druid, (archer form instead deals psychic damage+CHA mod, chalice form heals +CHA mod) (uses bardic inspiration))
Level 7
-countercharm, -fighting style
Level 8
-ASI, -spellcasting(3rd level)
Level 9
-expertise (4),
Level 10
-bardic inspiration(d10), -half of font of inspiration (recover expended uses on short/long rest), -magical secrets
Level 11
-spellcasting(4th level)
Level 12
-ASI,
Level 13
-
Level 14
-[subclass feature], spellcasting (5th level)
Level 15
-bardic inspiration(d12),
Level 16
-ASI,
Level 17
-spellcasting(6th level)
Level 18
-superior inspiration,
Level 19
-epic boon,
Level 20
-words of creation(1/rest, can cast power word: heal or kill by expending a bardic inspiration, can target a 2nd creature within 10ft)

*valor bard level 6 extra attack becomes a fighting style and 2 weapon masteries, ability to sub a cantrip for an attack remains.

Spoiler: spell progression

x cantrips 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1 -----x----x---x----x---x----x---x
2 -----2---2---x----x---x----x---x
3 -----2---2---x----x---x----x---x
4 -----2---3---x----x---x----x---x
5 -----3---3---1----x---x----x---x
6 -----3---4---1----x---x----x---x
7 -----3---4---2----x---x----x---x
8 -----3---4---2----1---x----x---x
9 -----3---4---2----1---x----x---x
10 ----4---4---3----2---x----x---x
11 ----4---4---3----2---1----x---x
12 ----4---4---3----2---1----x---x
13 ----4---4---3----3---2----x---x
14 ----4---4---3----3---2----1---x
15 ----4---4---3----3---2----1---x
16 ----4---4---3----3---3----2---x
17 ----4---4---3----3---3----2---1
18 ----4---4---3----3---3----2---1
19 ----4---4---3----3---3----2---1
20 ----4---4---3----3---3----2---2

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I have also though that bard should be a 2/3 caster. I think they conceptually are a jack of all trades, but currently they are weighted too heavily towards casting. Apart subclasses that grant them combat capability, their fighting prowess past early levels is pathetic. I think they should be somewhat less focused on casting so that they could be broadened into other directions.

Unfortunately, the big problem that the "jack of all trades" runs into with 3e-/5e-style game design is that "somewhat less focused" = mostly sucks. I wish that weren't the case, but it is. Bards in 3.x work alright at E6 levels, maybe up to 7 or 8 at extremity, but beyond that? The chunkiness of class features just doesn't let it work.

A 2/3 caster falls behind by a spell level every three. So when the Wizard is getting fireball...and fireball is a worthwhile spell for the Wizard to cast...the 2/3 Bard is still stuck using 2nd level spells. But something that incremental can't be compensated by just getting all the strong features a Fighter would have, because then you're as good as a Fighter but also having double the spellcasting an Eldritch Knight would have. You're just stuck. With the way this game design style works, this effect compounds. Top-level 2/3rds Bards are just getting access to true seeing and mass suggestion (both things full-caster Wizards have been able to cast for six entire levels!) when Wizards are getting access to wish and time stop. And conversely, Fighters are narrowing in on four attacks per round (or two attacks + damage bonus feature, for Fighter-alikes like Paladin, Ranger, and Barbarian), while the Bard at best (as in, with a fighting subclass) languishes in 2 attacks with no other bonuses because any more bonuses would make them as good as an actual melee-focused class.

The lesson 3e taught us with Bards was that they have to be focused on something. They can augment that focus with breadth or depth, but they need to have something they're actually, directly good at all on its own. It's not that "jack of all trades" is a problem: it's that the "trades" only have two modes, too weak to carry a character, and too strong to be paired up with the other parts. In theory, the unique or semi-unique Bard features like Bardic Inspiration, Song of Rest, and Expertise should make up the gap....but they just don't. And, frankly, if they did make up the gap, people would complain that these features were either stupidly overpowered, or "mandatory" because of how dramatic an effect they have.

I am not quite sure what is exactly proposed here though? Building such a bard via multiclassing? I guess it can work, though it seems unsatisfactory to me and I would rather just modify the class.

I mean, it produces exactly what you're asking for. A class that gets a taste of Fighter and some additional skill/combat bonuses (via Rogue) and only 2/3 casting progression. It's just that that package, in 5e design, is simply Not Very Good, and even if you recompiled this into a single class, it wouldn't get meaningfully better.

The only way I could see any of this working is if you make it so the subclasses actually do make you comparable to a (minimal, hard-to-optimize) baseline character class that IS focused on that. Effectively, your subclass is multiclassing without multiclassing: the Valor Bard is a minimal, stripped-down, unoptimized but still functional, Sword-and-Board Fighter with 2/3rds casting; the Lore Bard is a minimal, stripped-down, unoptimized but still functional, Wizard with no subclass features (because it actually boosts you to full spellcasting); the Dance Bard is a minimal, stripped-down, unoptimized but still functional, Monk with 2/3rds casting; etc. And even that sounds like it would be absolute hell to balance because 2/3rds casting is a huge power boost relative to even a subclass-free Monk or Fighter, even if you strip out most of their class features.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

@EzekielRaiden

I agree with your sentiment that the base bard class should be good at something. In the 5e case: spellcasting.

In AD&D thief xp progression made sure they actually did not fall much behind a wizard in spellcasting at lower levels. They were about 0 to 1 spell level behind for a while*. So maybe just taking a level in fighter and then straight bard until level 1/8 will probably simulate AD&D better.

*I looked the tables up. Neglecting bonus xp, my recollection was close but not perfect.

0 XP: wizard is one spell level ahead.
1250XP: bard gets their first level.
5kXP: both get level 2 spells.
20k XP: wizards get level 3 spells
40k XP: bard gets level 3 spells
60k XP: wizards up to level 4 spells
135k XP: wizards up to level 5 spells
160k XP: bards get level 4 spells.
660k XP: bards get level 5 spells
750k XP: wizards get level 6 spells
1500k XP: wizards get level 7 spells
1540k XP: bards get level 6 spells

So at level 3 wizard and bard 4, both get 2nd level spells at the same time. Only when the wizard gets level 9, they are actually 2 spell levels ahead for the next 25k XP. After that, bards actually catch up for the next 110k XP, because wizards need to be level 12 for 6th level spells in AD&D. The last important breakpoint is 150k XP where wizards are ahead 2 spell levels once again for tiny 40k XP.

So lets say for 5e, they start to fall behind the wizard at bard level 4 and once again at bard level 6.

Also keeping in mind that spell power/duration was always level dependent, not spell level dependent, multiclassing with a half caster / full caster would allow them to keep their spell power/duration up at least. Actually bard fireballs hurt more for quite some levels.

So the best progression would probably be:

bard 1-3
paladin 1 (caster level increase, weapon masteries)
bard 4-6
sorcerer 1 (emulating more spell power)
bard 7-12
sorcerer 2-7

so we end up at level 12 bard, 1 paladin and level 7 sorcerer.

Stat spread:
13 Str
14 Dex
12 Con
10 Int
8 We
15 Cha

Paladin for 13 Str hurts.

Maybe just scrap the one caster level from paladin and be a fighter instead. Also starting without spells is appropriate for the bard.

So back to
level 1 Fighter
level 1 to 6 bard
now 1 level sorcerer
then bard 7 - 12
then sorcerer all the way up.

Stat spread:

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 13*
Wis 8
Cha 15

*AD&D 2e required bards to have 13 int. That would actually allow them to take some wizard levels.

But of course, at that point it bears the question: what is wrong about straight bard. If you want to be more martial orientated, be a valour Bard, use a feat for weapon mastery, maybe combar casting and divide points between Cha and Str/Dex

 

[mellored]

While true that damage spells need to scale to keep on par, Healing too, though less so since you only need 1HP to fight.

But all control/buff spells work just fine.

Command is still a good spell to cast on Vecna. Bless still helps the party.