Level Up (A5E) replacing exertion with HP

[orionox]

I don't like exertion and the fact that it's just another resource that my players need to track. My players don't really like it and more often than not forget to increment it up or down. With this in mind, me and my players have talked about making things a little easier to remember so I'm planning on abolishing exertion and replacing all of its costs with an HP cost. To compensate I was thinking I'd give everyone an extra hit die and maybe an extra hit dies worth of health as well. I know there are a few heal for exertion point abilities in the game and for the most part, I figured I'd simply remove them or severely change them. Just looking to see what other people think

 

[lichmaster]

I personally like exertion and don't find the idea of replacing it with HP works very well, but here are some observations:

• What if players don't use exertion and just "hoard" the extra hp to use as, well, hp?
• What if a player uses exertion when is at low hp? KO?
• What about the exertion cost for each maneuver? With the rules as existing, the maximum amount of exertion you can normally have is 12, 16 if you're a fighter an 19 (iirc) if you're an adept. This is at very high levels. You'd need to balance the costs differently, since a pc with 20hp (level 2/3 depending on class and constitution) could possibly spend the same amount of exertion/hp as a very high level character using normal rules.
• Can you recover those extra hp as you do with exertion (1 minute refocus once per day, then spending hit dice)? Could the free 1/day recovery be used as extra HP as in point 1?

 

[W'rkncacnter]

i mean i don't know about your players but if i had to hurt myself to use maneuvers i'd just not use them, especially at lower levels

also

• What about the exertion cost for each maneuver? With the rules as existing, the maximum amount of exertion you can normally have is 12, 16 if you're a fighter an 19 (iirc) if you're an adept. This is at very high levels. You'd need to balance the costs differently, since a pc with 20hp (level 2/3 depending on class and constitution) could possibly spend the same amount of exertion/hp as a very high level character using normal rules.

you get 22 exertion as a 20th level adept, not 19 (2*6 from exertion+10 from class), but yeah, you get so much HP that it'd throw the exertion economy completely off (assuming your players aren't like me and don't mind hurting themselves to bully people). i'm not sure there's a way around exertion. i don't really see the problem with it, either. it's definitely a lot simpler then spell slots.

 

[orionox]

I personally like exertion and don't find the idea of replacing it with HP works very well, but here are some observations:

• What if players don't use exertion and just "hoard" the extra hp to use as, well, hp?
• What if a player uses exertion when is at low hp? KO?
• What about the exertion cost for each maneuver? With the rules as existing, the maximum amount of exertion you can normally have is 12, 16 if you're a fighter an 19 (iirc) if you're an adept. This is at very high levels. You'd need to balance the costs differently, since a pc with 20hp (level 2/3 depending on class and constitution) could possibly spend the same amount of exertion/hp as a very high level character using normal rules.
• Can you recover those extra hp as you do with exertion (1 minute refocus once per day, then spending hit dice)? Could the free 1/day recovery be used as extra HP as in point 1?

All good points, but I don't think anything you've brought is actually that detrimental to balance. If they don't use maneuvers and Hoard the extra 8-12 hp they'd get, I'm not really concerned about it. That's like 1-2 extra attacks to down someone late game. I would actually allow players to KO themselves with maneuvers, I think that could result in some interesting story moments where a player downs themselves to get off a special or vital maneuver. The fact that exertion is balanced around a 1 minute rest period, is actually why I'm not concerned about letting my low-level or even high-level characters have the ability to cast a tone more maneuvers in a single battle. A 1 minute special rest period means that you should have access to maneuvers in each battle and shouldn't really run out. So I'm not really concerned about players using too many maneuvers as the system basically assumes constant access to them. As for recovering them, no, I wouldn't allow players to recover HP in the same way they would recover exertion.

 

[orionox]

i mean i don't know about your players but if i had to hurt myself to use maneuvers i'd just not use them, especially at lower levels

also

you get 22 exertion as a 20th level adept, not 19 (2*6 from exertion+10 from class), but yeah, you get so much HP that it'd throw the exertion economy completely off (assuming your players aren't like me and don't mind hurting themselves to bully people). i'm not sure there's a way around exertion. i don't really see the problem with it, either. it's definitely a lot simpler then spell slots.

My players are min/max and play magic. They know and have the mindset that no health loss matters except the last one (which is actually true in DnD) so they don't actually mind hurting themselves for advantages. As for throwing off the maneuver economy, maneuvers have a basic recovery period of 1 minute. With such a short recovery period, the system suggests that players should always have access to maneuvers.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

My players are min/max and play magic. They know and have the mindset that no health loss matters except the last one (which is actually true in DnD) so they don't actually mind hurting themselves for advantages. As for throwing off the maneuver economy, maneuvers have a basic recovery period of 1 minute. With such a short recovery period, the system suggests that players should always have access to maneuvers.

so...your players can manage spell slots, but not exertion? ok, i guess...

as for the maneuver economy, the problem isn't recovery time, it's the number of maneuvers you can use in one fight. being able to recover 1d4 exertion per hit die per minute doesn't change the fact that a base level 20 fighter will have a maximum of 16 exertion while a level 20 fighter with your rules (assuming no extra hit die) will have a maximum of, on average, 114 exertion (assuming a con mod of 0), and that's before you consider healing (and temporary hit points, for that matter - would you let players spend temp hp on maneuvers?). even if that fighter decides it's only worth it to spend up to 20% of his hp on maneuvers, that's still 22 (when rounded down) exertion points - which is what a 20th level ADEPT gets.

that's another thing - an adept with your rules would effectively have less exertion on average then a fighter due to their smaller hit die, when the classes are balanced the other way around. i suppose if we're talking about specifically the fighter vs the adept i guess that's not that bad - the fighter being the master of maneuvers yet having less exertion then the adept always felt silly to me anyway - but once we pull in the berserker with that d12...yeah, now this is just silly. maybe the balance between classes won't matter much to you depending on the makeup of your party, but my point is there's a lot to consider when you're changing something as fundamental as the resource for a major component of every martial class in the game. it's your game, do what you want, but you wanted opinions, and i don't think this will go well.

 

[lichmaster]

A 1 minute special rest period means that you should have access to maneuvers in each battle and shouldn't really run out.

This is wrong, but I misrembered the mechanics.
The 1 minute special rest allows you to spend 1HD to recover 1d4 exertion, and each HD spent this way takes one minute. So they will definitely not be at full exertion at every battle, unless they are ok with not recovering hp at the end of a short rest, or you're ok with them taking a short rest after every encounter. Also, if they burn through HD very quickly, remember that a long rest allows them to recover only half of their total HD pool.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

so...your players can manage spell slots, but not exertion? ok, i guess...

I think he meant Magic: The Gathering - where is you have 1 pt of life left, you are just as good as having full; as he made a comparison to the about HP.

 

[orionox]

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[orionox]

This is wrong, but I misrembered the mechanics.
The 1 minute special rest allows you to spend 1HD to recover 1d4 exertion, and each HD spent this way takes one minute. So they will definitely not be at full exertion at every battle, unless they are ok with not recovering hp at the end of a short rest, or you're ok with them taking a short rest after every encounter. Also, if they burn through HD very quickly, remember that a long rest allows them to recover only half of their total HD pool.

I never said they'd have "full exertion" just access to maneuvers in every battle. The system is designed for easy access to the maneuvers. Making the maneuvers cost health, I think its fair to let them have longer more consistent access.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I think he meant Magic: The Gathering - where is you have 1 pt of life left, you are just as good as having full; as he made a comparison to the about HP.

i was referring to "My players are min/max and play magic."

 

[orionox]

i was referring to "My players are min/max and play magic."

I was infact referring to MTG with that statement.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I was infact referring to MTG with that statement.

ah, okay, well nevermind then.

 

[Vampersan]

This is...intriguing, imo. I mean, if HP is largely considered an abstraction of general health/fatigue/rolling with the punches, I feel like substituting exertion out for HP could work, at least thematically. Balance-wise, I don't think it would cause a major issue either. Yes, warriors will have access to way more maneuvers per encounter than normally allowed, but I don't think any of the maneuvers in the core book are so wildly powerful that using them multiple times per encounter would be game breaking. Although, maneuvers that restore HP may need to be tweaked or disallowed so as avoid gaming the system (trading a small amount of HP to gain a significant amount more in return, thereby potentially allowing infinite maneuvers)?

You might also consider a system where martial characters can perform a set number of maneuvers per short/long rest, maybe like 3/short rest or 6/long rest? And then any attempt to perform more maneuvers without taking a rest triggers a Constitution Save (DC 8+2 each time another maneuver is attempted, with each failure resulting in a level of exhaustion).

Not so sure about that idea, though. Could be kind of harsh the more I think about it. At any rate, if everyone at your table is fine with the idea of taking "damage" to power maneuvers, more power to you.

I'm interested in seeing how this works, let us know the results if you end up trying it.

 

[orionox]

This is...intriguing, imo. I mean, if HP is largely considered an abstraction of general health/fatigue/rolling with the punches, I feel like substituting exertion out for HP could work, at least thematically. Balance-wise, I don't think it would cause a major issue either. Yes, warriors will have access to way more maneuvers per encounter than normally allowed, but I don't think any of the maneuvers in the core book are so wildly powerful that using them multiple times per encounter would be game breaking. Although, maneuvers that restore HP may need to be tweaked or disallowed so as avoid gaming the system (trading a small amount of HP to gain a significant amount more in return, thereby potentially allowing infinite maneuvers)?

You might also consider a system where martial characters can perform a set number of maneuvers per short/long rest, maybe like 3/short rest or 6/long rest? And then any attempt to perform more maneuvers without taking a rest triggers a Constitution Save (DC 8+2 each time another maneuver is attempted, with each failure resulting in a level of exhaustion).

Not so sure about that idea, though. Could be kind of harsh the more I think about it. At any rate, if everyone at your table is fine with the idea of taking "damage" to power maneuvers, more power to you.

I'm interested in seeing how this works, let us know the results if you end up trying it.

Thats sort of where I'm coming from. Thematically, HP is a measure of your ability to keep fighting, including moral,, stamina, and blood loss. So I figured making a special maneuvers cost stamina, so it should cost HP. Ontop of that, exertion shares its replenishment mechanic with HP anyway (hit dice). I've played 2 sessions with it and so for so good. I have actually gone back on my initial idea to increase player health to compensate. The fact that players get "unlimited" maneuvers is enough compensation I think actually balance out nicely. Yes, you get more of them, but they individually cost "more" since their cost isn't just a random resource you have and can blow without consequences other than dipping DPS or CC slightly.

 

[Vampersan]

Thats sort of where I'm coming from. Thematically, HP is a measure of your ability to keep fighting, including moral,, stamina, and blood loss. So I figured making a special maneuvers cost stamina, so it should cost HP. Ontop of that, exertion shares its replenishment mechanic with HP anyway (hit dice). I've played 2 sessions with it and so for so good. I have actually gone back on my initial idea to increase player health to compensate. The fact that players get "unlimited" maneuvers is enough compensation I think actually balance out nicely. Yes, you get more of them, but they individually cost "more" since their cost isn't just a random resource you have and can blow without consequences other than dipping DPS or CC slightly.

Very cool! I'm glad to hear it's working for your group. Do you find that your players are ever in danger of dropping below 0hp more often now than before, or no? Does your group have a healer, and if so, did you notice if that character was more willing to cast healing spells in-combat to compensate for the martial characters' HP loss, as opposed to just waiting to heal outside of combat?

Thanks for reporting the results, btw. ^.^

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

If you wanna go this route, make them cost hit dice not straight up hit points. We do some thing like this in our games.

Is similar to the 4E Healing surges

 

[orionox]

If you wanna go this route, make them cost hit dice not straight up hit points. We do some thing like this in our games.

Is similar to the 4E Healing surges

That increases reliance on long rests since that's how you get hit die back. Which is sort of what I'm trying to get away from, while also eliminating a needles (in my opinion resource.)

 

[orionox]

Very cool! I'm glad to hear it's working for your group. Do you find that your players are ever in danger of dropping below 0hp more often now than before, or no? Does your group have a healer, and if so, did you notice if that character was more willing to cast healing spells in-combat to compensate for the martial characters' HP loss, as opposed to just waiting to heal outside of combat?

Thanks for reporting the results, btw. ^.^

So we've really only had one good fight with it so far I'll get back to you after they've had a few more fights with it.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

That increases reliance on long rests since that's how you get hit die back. Which is sort of what I'm trying to get away from, while also eliminating a needles (in my opinion resource.)

Then allow recovery on short rest. Don’t limit yourself. If you are looking to make a change anyway, make change