Replacing Nightmare (5th) effect with other spells

[Koewn]

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SKIP all this, and go down to my second post, I've reworded the question into a better answerable form!

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This is somewhat half-formed, so bear with me.

Dream is 5th level:

Casting Time 1 minute
Range: Unlimited
Save/SR: None, Yes
Duration: Varies

Project Image is 7th:

Casting Time: Standard Action
Range: Medium (100+10/lvl)
Save: Will Disbelief
Duration: 1rd/level

I'm looking for a spell that would do this:

Project an image of the caster's choice into someone's dream, to either send a message or deliver a spell (as project image does), but limit it to mind-affecting spells or perhaps glamers/phantasms.

If I were to throw this out:

Dream Image

Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Medium (100+10/lvl) (or long?)
Duration: 1 rd/lvl
Save/SR: Will Disbelief? (this doesn't seem to affect delivered spells in Project Image, so I'm not sure of it's utility)

Dream Image allows a caster to deliver a message, or a spell of less than Dream Image's level that is of types Mind-Affecting, Glamer, Phantasm when the target is dreaming (with the same mechanics as Dream). Multiple spells can be delivered in the dream during the spell's duration.

For example, a caster could disguise himself with Alter Self and cast a Suggestion. Or just lay down a Phantasmal Killer.

What level, you think? 6th? It's limited in when you can use it, and limited in what kind of spells you can deliver, as compared to Project Image. There's no line-of-sight limitation, however.

I'm assuming most of the reason Dream/Nightmare/Sending are 5th level is due to the Unlimited range, so what I'm attempting to do here really is limit Project Image with the mechanics of Dream.

I'm hoping that gets me down into the 5th or 6th level range.

This is all for a NPC, so. I could just declare it to happen using artistic license, but I wouldn't mind knowing it's feasible rules-wise with the level the NPC will be.

Thanks!

Koewn

 

[Jack Simth]

Compare to Demand:

Demand

Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Saving Throw: Will partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell functions like sending, but the message can also contain a suggestion (see the suggestion spell), which the subject does its best to carry out. A successful Will save negates the suggestion effect but not the contact itself. The demand, if received, is understood even if the subject’s Intelligence score is as low as 1. If the message is impossible or meaningless according to the circumstances that exist for the subject at the time the demand is issued, the message is understood but the suggestion is ineffective.

The demand’s message to the creature must be twenty-five words or less, including the suggestion. The creature can also give a short reply immediately.

Material Component: A short piece of copper wire and some small part of the subject—a hair, a bit of nail, or the like.

Your proposed spell is:
More Flexible (Can send a Demand, Charm Person, Dominate Person, or a Phantasmal Killer, as appropriet)
More Powerful (a Sorcerer could spam six or seven Charm Person spells through it, to make sure one of them took)
Less Restrictive in some ways (Demand requires a piece of the subject)
More restrictive in some ways (you have to be within a particular range of the subject)

My conclusion is that your spell should be of a meaningfully higher level than Demand.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

If you are really interested in fleshing out the Dream Magic bit, I would suggest picking up 'Occult Lore' for Keith's take on it. He has a very good system that fits well into the normal magic world...altho much more extensive

Or, using your start here.. I would make modifications to it like:
- Turn this into a Meta-Magic feat tree that can be applied to a select list of spells. The entry level feat would allow you to comminucate in dreams via message, silent image..etc. Mostly 1st level spells. The second feat boosts the spell list up and includes higher level spells. etc...
There should be limitations on jumping into someones dream, much like the limitations on Scry.

 

[Koewn]

Compare to Demand:
Your proposed spell is:
More Flexible (Can send a Demand, Charm Person, Dominate Person, or a Phantasmal Killer, as appropriet)
More Powerful (a Sorcerer could spam six or seven Charm Person spells through it, to make sure one of them took)
Less Restrictive in some ways (Demand requires a piece of the subject)
More restrictive in some ways (you have to be within a particular range of the subject)

My conclusion is that your spell should be of a meaningfully higher level than Demand.

Whoops, I totally missed Demand, didn't look up to 8th.

So, let's do this:

Demand

(minus) Unlimited Range
(add) Range (Short, 25+5/lvl, (in the next hotel room range)
(minus) Demand's clause for the target giving a short reply
(minus) Demand's clause affecting Int 1-2 (leave at 3)
(add) Dream/Nightmare's limitations on casting.

Actually, let's back up a bit, and present the idea from a different angle:

I'm curious what level effect Nightmare would be (1d10 damage, fatigued and unable to regain arcane spells for 24 hours) would be without the Nightmare portion of it. Say, as a single target Wave of Fatigue (5th) with 1d10 damage and the "can't regain arcane" clause.

4th level, probably? 3rd? (how valuable is a 30 ft cone vs Short range (single target)?) The "can't regain arcane spells" is a pretty tough one, though, I don't think it's tied to the fatigue.

Would that make enough arguement that simply replacing that 4th/3rd level effect (inside the 5th level spell) with a 3rd level effect (Suggestion) would still be 5th level?

Especially if we made that swap *and* took out Nightmare's "Unlimited" range?

Given everything's "balanced", replacing an effect of equal or lesser spell level with another should all work out right, yea?



Koewn