Requiring Players To Draw The Dungeon Map!

[Irda Ranger]

So your answer to the question in the OP is yes: you require a player to map. The DM is a player, too. You just prefer shifting the map making to another player; indeed, demand that another player make the map.

I really don't know what to say to that.

Yeah, except that the GM, by definition, is right. He literally can't draw a "wrong" map, so he can do in 5 minutes what would take at least half-an-hour of back and forth Q&A during game time. That hardly seems efficient or fun.

Besides, the GM has to draw the map anyway, if he plans on having the dungeon at all planned out. Although I haven't used such technique myself, it would be easy to (a) draw a rough sketch map, (b) make xerox copies for the players (to hand out once they've explored the area), then (c) fill in the GM info for game time. This would involve 90% less time for the same result, and minus a lot of frustration.

Getting it right doesn't require this level of effort, getting it right requires enough detail to avoid getting lost (in most cases).

In that case, the spoke & hub (or "line map") as originally suggested by ruleslawyer, would be more than sufficient. I certainly don't want to infer any trollish motives on your part, but did you miss that post by him (or the one where I quoted him) where he suggested such?

Example, followed by two questions:

(Orc cave) <----- tunnel, 150' N-NW, 10' wide, 10-deg downslope ----> (Owl bear den)

(Owl bear den: 3 entrances: SSE, W, E)

(Owl bear den) <--(L) tunnel, 60' W, 5' wide ----> (Empty crypt)
(Owl bear den) <--(R) tunnel, 30' E, 5' wide ----> (Cave exits)


1. Would you call this an accurate map?
2. Would you allow a PC (with no map) to simply say "I retrace my steps from the Cave Exit to the Orc Cave" based on a Surival or Int check alone (assuming the player himself could not remember)? Recall that he only needs to make one choice (straight or immediate left, upon entering the Owl Bear Den) and that we'll assume the character has been this way recently.

************

On a related note, how do you handle parties that spend several days in a dungeon, but don't have a Dwarf who always knows his depth and/or a compass? Do you assume that they have a perfect sense of North, regardless of how many twisty turns they make? Do all your corridors meet at right angles?

 

[Ed_Laprade]

The map has to come from somewhere. Just because the character has surveying skill doesn't make a map materialize in the player's hand.
So your answer to the question in the OP is yes: you require a player to map. The DM is a player, too. You just prefer shifting the map making to another player; indeed, demand that another player make the map.

I really don't know what to say to that.

You could try saying: "Y'know, maybe he's got a point." As in, the point that you seem to be missing entirely is that some of us just DO NOT find mapping fun. And the point of the game is supposed to be to have fun. I've been gaming since the late seventies and I've rarely seen a mapper who didn't end up totally frustrated after spending hours putting lines on paper based on long, tedious descriptions provided by the GM, which usually ended up boring everyone else in the room to tears, only to find that it didn't actually have much relation to the area our characters were in.

If that's how your players have fun, more power to them! But it ain't for me.

 

[danzig138]

the point that you seem to be missing

No way, dude. It's completely obvious that we're the ones missing the point.
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Damn, I got nothing that is within the rules I think, except that I think Gentlegamer's eyes are brown, and it's not from genetics. I sure am glad there aren't Jackbooted Gaming Police Thugs to show up at the door when we do it wrong though.








Right? There aren't Jackbooted Gaming Police Thugs coming for us, are there? Guys?

 

[Raven Crowking]

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how forcing players to sketch out laughably crude maps in realtime somehow adds to any DM's enjoyment of the game they're running.

Which is funny, 'cause I'm squarely in the 'challenge the players' camp.

I don't see any posters here saying that they force players to do anything. How would you go about that, anyway?

What I see is "If they enter a complicated space, don't map, and don't pay attention to where they are going, the ensuing chaos is on them, not on the DM." This is a philosophy that I, for one, endorse. No matter what side of the table I am sitting on.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

By the way, re: the intelligence of characters.

The final issue of Dungeon contains a being with an Intelligence of 25 or 26 (should have brought the mag with me to work!). It is described as having genius-level intelligence.

If this is correct, supergenius must be higher than 25 at least.

RC

 

[JDJblatherings]

Mapping certainly has it's place in D&D. In small 5 room dungeons- none needed. In larger complexes yes, it is a useful aid to the players. but players don't have to map even if the charcters should. If no players want to bother mapping but they don't plan on gettign lost have them mark walls as they travel with chalk (it isn't hard as DM to put those marks on the map as the PC travel) this of course adds another layer of risk (monster can follow the chalk marks) but it explains how the PCs can fidn thier way about a dungeon without a complex map.

when flks are mapping, DMs shoulddecribe the setting in relative terms from where the PC would be standing and not with compass coordinates or exact measurments. When was the last time yuo asked someone if a specific room or offic ein a buildign was north of where you were?Using loose descriptiosn and terms keeps the mapping simpler and more enjoyable.

the notion that high INT characters wouldn't need to map (or do anythign to keep track of where they are) because they are high INT is laughable to me. I work in a big labrynthian complex with certifiable geniuses, PHDs and rocket scientists (really) and many can't all find their way around the company and some of them have worked here for years.

 

[Melan]

When I'm playing, I map, not just for navigation, but for notekeeping and the fun of producing a visual artifact of the game.

When I DM, I don't require my group to map, but it is in their best interests to do so. Now, since my descriptive skills are pretty deficient, I stick with making dungeons that are composed of relatively simple spaces; complexity comes from the map layout, not its individual parts. It doesn't have to be accurate, since I don't map on graph paper with rulers either (that seriously cramps my creativity). I usually work with visual analogies related to the room we are in at the moment... "Oh, it is about as tall as this room.", or "See that building through the window? About that far." And if they ask, I draw a few rooms, or occasionally the whole dungeon. Plus I give out map handouts if the PCs acquire them through purchase, theft. etc. What can I say, I'm a bit softie.

But I like it when the players choose to take on the mapping mantle, too. That's player skill, which should be appreciated.

 

[JediSoth]

If I have time to map things out, say in DundJinni, I will, so they can just have it on the table before them, but sometimes, I don't have time. In those cases, they'll gladly grab a marker and map things out on my Tact-Tiles, but it does slow the game down a bit, particularly when the rooms are something other than straight and square. I personally don't care much for the precise, architectural descriptions; I mean, it's not like they all have tape measures and can precisely tell the room is 25' x 30'....but the maps quickly get messed up if you don't describe it in those terms.

DundJinni and the maps by Skeleton Key Games have been a godsend, though they make my Tact-Tiles fall into disuse. It's just so much easier to plop a color, computer-drawn battlemap down than wait for them to draw something.

JediSoth

 

[Mallus]

I don't see any posters here saying that they force players to do anything.

By 'force' I meant 'incentivize'. Which is probably what I should have said originally, come to think about it.

What I see is "If they enter a complicated space, don't map, and don't pay attention to where they are going, the ensuing chaos is on them, not on the DM."

Remember that the ultimate function of that 'complicated space' is to entertain a group of people playing a game. It doesn't (well, shouldn't) exist for it's own sake.

This is a philosophy that I, for one, endorse.

My philosophy is different, and terribly simple: The challenges in a D&D game have to be enjoyable to overcome in and of themselves. They shouldn't merely stand between the players and some reward. A rigorous challenge for the characters should equate to fun for the players. If they don't derive any pleasure from solving the puzzle (including an act like mapping), then it doesn't belong in that game.

Why should a game include not-fun parts? It's a curious design philosophy.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I don't require drawing maps but encourage it, even if crudely. I don't want to spend pointless hours of wasted game time describing walls to map. I don't need players wasting time simply making an exacting duplicate of MY map, yet some of the point of the exercise is lost if detail is disregarded in their mapping.

Maps are TOOLS for both DM's and players. The DM draws a map and places important elements in precise locations - like traps. Players/characters who want to have reasonably accurate maps often do so because they can reveal when they've been turned around, or where hidden rooms or secret doors might be, or where one room is in relation to another in three dimensions. Drawing maps - even if just by one player/PC - also enhances a certain feeling of exploration and it's much better than endless recitation of complex dimension and distances. Furthermore, without that "interruption" and "description" on a basic, graphical level the exploration becomes instead a sequence of encounters whose location becomes meaningless and loses context.

I will let the players choose their characters own priorities. If they want the advantages of maps for their characters then they have to draw them. If they don't want to distract themselves by that activity thats fine too, but it is a discouragement to me as I will then need to concentrate more on dry VERBAL description to keep the players aware of their characters environment. I don't want to penalize players for their lack of mapping skills if they are putting forth effort. I will TELL them when their map is off and why if it's not an in-game reason. If they've effectively explored all of a dungeon, THEN I'll let them see my map. It's long been an agreement with players that once a dungeon is cleared secret doors and rooms WILL be found if the characters care to spend the time to conduct a leisurely search (unless it's physically impossible). But, once they tell me they're confident they've found it all then any remaining secret rooms vanish in a puff of logic.

Sometimes I can make use of the fact that they still have a map of a given dungeon by sending them BACK to it to get an overlooked item or clue, or repopulate it with bigger/badder opponents.

Mapping is not an all-or-nothing activity. When players are mapping you can do certain things in-game that you otherwise couldn't (or at least they'll be easier). When they aren't mapping then you're likely emphasizing some aspects of the game over others, such as constant/speedier play and action, over establishing mood and verisimilitude. And not every dungeon is the same. Some are complex and full of secrets and traps. Others are simple and full of only monsters and obvious loot for smash-and-grab slugfests. Some are mere containers for the monsters and treasure which are what one adventure may emphasize. Others are meant to be a part of the story itself and their very design and appearance set the mood for what's there; a dry, dusty, trap-filled tomb of mummies; or a wet, moldy lair of Lovecraftian horrors; or a cold, forbidding, cavernous, gothic mystery.

I wish I were that involved in my own games to manage keep that in mind. Still, to repeat, mapping is a tool. Both in-game and meta-game. If players are distracted with a map in some way then the monsters will get a surprise round on the PCs. If the players draw a map they might see that there is a PATTERN to the dungeon design which could be merely amusing or useful in-game knowledge when something breaks the pattern - and isn't it better if the players see/realize something like that on their own rather than you just handing them the map and pointing it out to them?

Mapping can be a bore, a pointless chore, a waste of valuable gaming time - but it can also be effective as a tool for pacing, as a plot device, etc.