Researching New Spells and Powers

[Ozmar]

What do you do for PCs who wish to research new spells or powers?

Let's say that you have a psion or wizard who wants to learn a new power/spell. They already get their standard 2 spells per level and are not satisfied. They want more. So they try to hire a high-level wizard to share their spellbook, but no dice. The stingy DM says no self-respecting greedy high-level wizard will share. So they try to buy a power stone or scroll, but again the stingy DM says that none are available for sale. So they try to seek out the power/spell through adventuring, but the stingy DM only populates the adventures with potions and magic swords. What can they do?

They turn to spell research. What rules exist to support spell research? Let's say the spell caster wants to research an existing high-level spell, like Limited Wish or something. They have no sources of the arcane knowledge, but they do have gold, skill, and time to spend. Do they have to make some kind of skill check and spend some amount of gold on research materials? Are there any rules or guidelines for this? Or do you have some house-rules for this?

The stingy DM wants to avoid having to make any arbitrary decisions, so he can leave as much control in the player's hands as possible.

I thought you guys would have some good ideas, since you're all so creative and clever.

Thanks!
Ozmar the Stingy DM

 

[reveal]

What do you do for PCs who wish to research new spells or powers?

Let's say that you have a psion or wizard who wants to learn a new power/spell. They already get their standard 2 spells per level and are not satisfied. They want more. So they try to hire a high-level wizard to share their spellbook, but no dice. The stingy DM says no self-respecting greedy high-level wizard will share. So they try to buy a power stone or scroll, but again the stingy DM says that none are available for sale. So they try to seek out the power/spell through adventuring, but the stingy DM only populates the adventures with potions and magic swords. What can they do?

They turn to spell research. What rules exist to support spell research? Let's say the spell caster wants to research an existing high-level spell, like Limited Wish or something. They have no sources of the arcane knowledge, but they do have gold, skill, and time to spend. Do they have to make some kind of skill check and spend some amount of gold on research materials? Are there any rules or guidelines for this? Or do you have some house-rules for this?

The stingy DM wants to avoid having to make any arbitrary decisions, so he can leave as much control in the player's hands as possible.

I thought you guys would have some good ideas, since you're all so creative and clever.

Thanks!
Ozmar the Stingy DM

First off, I think you're limiting the roleplaying opportunities by not letting the PCs learn spells from higher level casters. Maybe the casters don't want to share their spells, but maybe said casters needs someone to "step and fetch it."

Anyway, spell research is covered on page 198 of the DMG. Basically, to research original spells, the PC spends 1000gp per spell level and it takes one week per spell level to complete. Once researched, they then have to make a Spellcraft check DC10+spell level. If they fail, they start the whole process again.

 

[Crothian]

I let them research. They need time, they need a lab, they need money. And then we play it out with some rolls and plenty of role playing. They tell me what they are trying to discover and then I determine what the spell they discover actually is.

 

[Thanee]

They already get their standard 2 spells per level and are not satisfied. They want more. So they try to hire a high-level wizard to share their spellbook, but no dice. The stingy DM says no self-respecting greedy high-level wizard will share. So they try to buy a power stone or scroll, but again the stingy DM says that none are available for sale. So they try to seek out the power/spell through adventuring, but the stingy DM only populates the adventures with potions and magic swords. What can they do?

Find a proper DM.

They turn to spell research. What rules exist to support spell research? Let's say the spell caster wants to research an existing high-level spell, like Limited Wish or something. They have no sources of the arcane knowledge, but they do have gold, skill, and time to spend. Do they have to make some kind of skill check and spend some amount of gold on research materials? Are there any rules or guidelines for this? Or do you have some house-rules for this?

Well, you could read p. 198 DMG 3.5 to find out.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Saeviomagy]

Let's say that you have a psion or wizard who wants to learn a new power/spell. They already get their standard 2 spells per level and are not satisfied. They want more. So they try to hire a high-level wizard to share their spellbook, but no dice. The stingy DM says no self-respecting greedy high-level wizard will share. So they try to buy a power stone or scroll, but again the stingy DM says that none are available for sale. So they try to seek out the power/spell through adventuring, but the stingy DM only populates the adventures with potions and magic swords. What can they do?

For the psion? Nothing. I'm pretty sure that the number of powers that a psion knows is flatly limited like the number of spells that a bard or sorceror knows.

For the wizard? Crack your DM across the chops. Oh, wait - you ARE the DM? Well, quit with the crap. Everyone wants money. Wizards can get that money by making scrolls or sharing knowledge of spells. Sharing spells is possibly the BEST solution to a cash shortage that a wizard has. And bear in mind - there's probably plenty of wizard around that are the same level as your PC, and just as desperate to expand their reportoir. Finally - as a DM you have to realise that the entire power of the wizard class is centred around KNOWING lots of spells. If a wizard doesn't have opportunities to get more spells, then he may as well scrap the character and start again as a sorceror - he'll be more powerful that way.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Wizards trading spells is a time-honored tradition in my games.

If you want them to have to pay its 50 gp x spell level cost for copying out of a spellbook.

Buying scrolls has always been a last resort in my games, rarely excersised. Reaserching is really for new spells that don't already exist. A way for a wizard to personalize. I don't think it should be necessary to spend that kind of cash on a spell that the wizard should have anyway. =/

Maybe the player could find a lower level wizard and offer some higher level spells for trade for the NPC's inferior spell list. Would make the NPC's day!

If a wizard doesn't have opportunities to get more spells, then he may as well scrap the character and start again as a sorceror - he'll be more powerful that way.

'Tis a sad truth.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

Entrenched as I am still in academia, I find that it often influences my style as a DM quite heavily. On the rare occasion when a player wants to research a spell that I don't feel is suitable, I don't tell them right off that I won't allow the spell. I let them work on their research, and maybe endure some delays, and then I have them discover other new spells, sometimes only tangentially related, but generally either useful to the PC or to other spellcasters willing to pay for the spell.

I find that original research often doesn't turn out the way we might have hoped or expected, but it almost always yields something interseting at least.

 

[the Jester]

I am very open to spell research. If it's broken, breaks a school (eg. the orb spells in CA) or is redundant (eg. it's just like fireball but does cold damage) I won't allow it; but anything interesting and not-broken I'm pretty open to.

The rules for spell research are in the dmg, and are based on Spellcraft iirc.

...it's all about time and money.

 

[Ozmar]

Thanks for the replies!

We're running in Eberron, where there is supposed to be a dearth of high-level spell casters. Still, I suppose that should make it easier for me to detail the few that do exist.

The psionic character is actually an "erudite", which is just like a psion, but he can expand his power knowledge like a wizard can learn new spells. (This base class was in a Dragon magazine. It is supposedly balanced by a limited number of unique power uses per day, but in practice it seems to be a little broken. Still, that's neither here nor there. It's only relevant in that the psionic character can learn new powers.)

Anyway, I appreciate the comments and will probably try to ease up on my stinginess. I feel as though I need a working economic model in order to determine whether a given power/spell is readily available on the market at any given time.

I don't want to just throw open the doors and allow everything to be available (although that would work, I just don't like the unlimited availability of every spell/power/item in the books). Prohibiting spells/powers across the board is similarly unsuitable. So I am left with making judgment calls on each and every request. Problem is, I can't seem to do it consistently and the players (correctly) feel that shopping for big ticket items is a crap shoot: its all based on how the DM feels at that particular moment.

So my working plan is to develop a detailed economic model for the major communities that I could use to make die rolls against some charts in order to settle the question of availability on any big-ticket items. I am starting with the "simple economic system" in Gamemaster Law (an old Rolemaster book), and will try to expand on that.

Wish me luck!

Ozmar the Masochist

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Find a proper DM.

Exactly. A DM (in a standard D&D game) being unduly stingy with the opportunities for wizards to learn new spells is doing a bad job. There's nothing that says they have to make available every spell the player wants, but the defining feature of wizards is their versatility, and if you deny them that, you are really gimping the class.