Researching spells for the bard and sorcerer.

[aco175]

I was looking at why only wizards can research spells to add to their books. Why shouldn't a bard or sorcerer add spells to their list if they research them. I can see where the rules allow for only a number of spells and maybe if they have as many as a wizard it might affect game balance.

I was looking for ideas to make this more viable. Maybe have a feat that would allow them to be able to research new spells. Maybe only allow research from other bards and sorcerers, using what spells they know. What about allowing them to research spells from scrolls. I know they have the feat that allows them to add 1 spell, but this seems kind of lame.

Any help?

 

[Darkness]

Well, considering that the Bard and Sorcerer aren't exactly the strongest classes to begin with, giving them a little break can't hurt.

It shouldn't be too easy, of course. There's a level 9 psychic power with which you can "teach" other people new powers beyond their normal limit. It costs a lot of XP. Maybe you can use that as inspiration.

For reference, from the SRD:[sblock]Psychic Chirurgery
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Telepath 9
Display: Auditory, mental, and visual
Manifesting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 17, XP; see text
You can repair psychic damage or grant another creature knowledge of powers you know, depending on the version of this power you manifest.
Repair Psychic Damage: You can remove any compulsions and charms affecting the subject. In fact, you can remove any instantaneous or permanent effect caused by a psychic power with psychic chirurgery. Unlike with aura alteration, these effects end or are negated as soon as this power is manifested, with no need for another saving throw.
You can remove all negative levels affecting the subject, regardless of how it lost those levels, restoring it to the highest level it had previously attained. Also, you can restore levels lost to energy drain or a similar effect if the level drain occurred within a number of hours equal to your manifester level.
You can also remove all psionic effects penalizing the subject’s ability scores, heal all ability damage, and remove any ability drain affecting the subject. Psychic chirurgery negates all forms of insanity, confusion, the effect of such powers as microcosm, and so on, but it does not restore levels or Constitution points lost due to death.
Transfer Knowledge: If desired, you can use this power to directly transfer knowledge of a power you know to another psionic character. You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest, even if the power is not normally on the character’s power list. Knowledge of powers gained through psychic chirurgery does not count toward the maximum number of powers a character can know per level.
XP Cost: Each time you use psychic chirurgery to implant knowledge of a power in another creature, you pay an XP cost equal to 1,000 x the level of the power implanted. If you and the subject are both willing to do so, you can split this cost evenly.[/sblock]

 

[aco175]

I was just looking on p. 198 of the DMG and it says that a spellcaster of any kind can research a new spell. I guess that solves my first opinion, but what about if somebody wants a spell that is in the the PHB. I would assume that it is the same thing as researching an original spell, just it is something you have seen or heard about.

I just read the last paragraph of that heading and it says that bards and sorcerers number of spells is strictly limited and that they cannot gain new spells, even through the research of original spells.

So, I guess I'm back to where we started. I tend to agree with Darkness that these classes are slightly weaker than some of the others and allowing this might not hurt too much. Maybe by tying it to a feat or allowing only a certain number might help somewhat.

What about a new feat similar to the one that allows another spell, but allows you to research spells. Give the first two at half cost and cap the total number you can research at you ability modifier +2. Another idea is to just add the ability to research new spells to the feat that allows a new spell. I would think to keep the number cap, in case it comes into a game balance issue.

 

[Corlon]

Actually, I believe it says that bards and sorcerers can research new spells, but not beyond their normal limit.

Maybe a feat that is sort of like the extra spell feat, but instead of just getting a spell you gain a certain number of research slots, which would basically allow more spells for less feats but at a gold cost. I don't know if that's overpowering and I can't realoly see a flavor description, but that's my idea.

 

[aco175]

I do think that what you are saying is more what the rules mean. I think that I will go with some sort of feat, but I can't think of how to make it exactly.

 

[ARandomGod]

I do think that what you are saying is more what the rules mean. I think that I will go with some sort of feat, but I can't think of how to make it exactly.

I once made a feat that I really enjoyed but never saw play. It's definitly stronger than the xtra spell feat, and it goes along with other custom abilities I gave to the sorc.

The other custom abilities amounted to basically the ability 1) "Burn" a spell known, ie cast it without paying the spell per day cost, at the cost of no longer knowing that spell. 2) The ability to replace a spell known with another spell known that you either researched or have found in a spell book or whatever. To avoid giving the sorc the versitility of the wizard with this, I gave it an intensive time cost. For a number of days equal to the spell level squared (minimum two days) you have to do a spell setting ritual that takes up the same amount of time as a wizard's spell memorization. So it would take 25 days to get a 5th level spell back (or replaced). I call a spell known a spell matrix, and so laying a new spell known would be laying a new spell matrix.

That gave the sorc's a reason to keep a spellbook, and more reason to research spells.

Then I added two new feats. I reason that you really have to add two feats to be fair to the wizards. They're two similiar feats.

1) Greater Matrix:
You gain the ability to lay an additional numer equal to your charisma modifier of spell levels in (IE, a character with a +4 charisma mod could lay four new first level spell matrices, or two second level, one fourth, a third and a first, a second and two first...)
You can take this feat more than once, it's effects stack.
2) Greater Memorization:
You can memorize an additional number of spells with total spell levels equal to your intelligence modifier. You can still only cast the same number of spells per day. (This feat would give a wizard greater flexibility on which spells he would cast that day). You can take this feat more than once, it's effects stack (can't be taken as a wizard bonus feat).

Combined these two feats do what you want with the sorc, which is give him acess to more spells known, which brings the sorc closer to the wizard class... AND it simultaniously brings the wizards closer to the sorc class by granting them more flexibility in which spells they have memorized that they cast.

 

[Terath Ninir]

Well, unless 3.5 has made spell research a lot cheaper than it used to be, I think the cost of researching a new spell balances out the added power it gives the character quite nicely. 3e characters are absolutely poverty-stricken compared to previous editions (my party once had to get a *second* portable hole for treasure!), so money is as good a balance as any. Every gp you spend on research is one you don't use for 1337 buff items.