Resurrected Lore

[Lorehead]

Alternative XP

In another thread, I pointed out problems with someone else’s XP rules. I try to avoid doing that without presenting a solution, but this was sufficiently divergent as to need a separate topic.

The Coda rules inspired this system. Designers who wish to use an alternative advancement system have my permission to use or adapt this one if they want (and to give credit ), rather than, say, adding 100 to every value.

If someone else had this idea already, I’m not aware of it and would appreciate a link.

This system is essentially identical to the one in the book, with only a few exceptions. (For example, a 4th-level party which overcomes a CR 11 challenge should receive 14,400 XP under the formula used at every other level, but only receives 12,800. I have not attempted to duplicate any of these oddities.)

What's a Level: For the purposes of these rules, “level” always means effective character level (ECL).

Cost to Advance: Whenever you earn 1,000 experience, you gain a level. You therefore reach second level at 2,000 experience, third level at 3,000 experience and so on.

Experience Penalties: Divide all fixed experience penalties by the character’s level.

Story Awards: Divide all fixed experience awards by the character’s level.

Losing a Level: Characters who lose a level also lose 1,000 experience.

Converting to the New Rules: Subtract the experience cost to reach your level from your total experience. Divide the difference by your level. Add 1,000 experience per level. This is your new experience.

Penalties for Multi-Classing: Don’t use favored classes in a new OGL game. If the game does use these rules, you take a 200 xp penalty for each class that violates them. These penalties stack. They never cause level loss, but they do delay you from reaching higher levels. If you later bring one of your classes back into parity, the penalty for it goes away.

Experience Awards by Level:
Use the following table for all character levels, including levels 1 and 2 and epic levels.

Look up the appropriate award for each character who participated in the encounter, based on that character’s level, then divide by the number of characters who participated. Cohorts, animal companions, special mounts and similar allies who advance based on their master’s level do not count as participants or receive experience. Hirelings and other NPCs who participated in the encounter, but not in the party’s decisions, count as half a character and receive half of this reward.

Relative      Experience
Challenge     Award
[u](CR - Level)            [/u]
-8 or less       *
        -7      25
        -6      38
        -5      50
        -4      75
        -3     100
        -2     150
        -1     200
         0     300
        +1     450
        +2     600
        +3     900
        +4    1200
        +5    1800
        +6    2400
        +7    3600
+8 or more      **

* Creatures such as this are generally too weak to present an appropriate challenge, even in large numbers. If they do present a real challenge due to the structure of the adventure, grant a story award.
** Creatures such as this are generally too deadly to present an appropriate challenge. If the party does manage to defeat such an opponent, consider the circumstances before deciding how much of an award to grant. No character may earn enough experience to advance more than one level at a time.

Challenge Ratings Below 1: Treat CR 1/2 as -1, CR 1/3 as -2, and so on.

 

[Lorehead]

Good, thanks for re-posting them. I really like your "polymorphs" better than the actual thing.

You're welcome. If you use them, let me know how they worked out.

 

[Land Outcast]

Wonderful, no need for the players for bookkeeping (that means that they don't need the MM during the session in case they forgot their notes). Plus, it helps the DM to know more clearly the possibilities at the players' hands (no more "but this monster has sprew-your-challlenge just because it says so").

I'll have to give a look at the classes and the alternate xp thingy... the epic stuff is not for me (at least for the time being I enjoy more games around levels 5-15)

 

[Kerrick]

Rather than post comments on the spells in the other thread, since it'd be slightly off-topic, I decided to go here.

I noticed, first off, that they're all low-level. You have anything higher? Mine currently range from 10-25, with a few odd ones even higher.

Aphasia: I can understand the part about blocking a creature's ability to understand language (that alone would make a good 7th-8th level curse), but why does it grant the caster control over the target? This a totally unrelated effect, IMO.

Arbitrary Form: Interesting spell. I'd allow a Will save each day (cumulative penalty) until it fails, but otherwise, not bad.

Call Herald: This is way too low level. Consider summon monster IX - the average CR for those monsters is around 12. Solars are CR 23, titans 21, so I'd put the level for a spell like this at around 15-16 (I'd go by 2 points of CR per level after IX).

Commune Beyond Nature: I've never used spells like commune or legend lore, so I can't really say much here.

Controlled disjunction: I got rid of the non-epic disjunction and replaced it with an epic version, which does much the same thing, but after reading your version, I'm going to change mine again.

Basically, I'd keep the 9th-level version, with the area effect dispel (+40 cap) or you can automatically disjoin a single spell effect, or destroy a single (non-epic) magic item with a targetted disjoining (Will save applies). This would not work against artifacts. The epic version (~L12) would do the same thing, but has no cap and can work against (lesser) artifacts.

Duplicate spell: Hmm... powerful spell. Maybe a bit too powerful for 10th level. I could easily imagine someone getting a free wish, wail of the banshee, gate, implosion... you get the idea.

Epiphany: Hmm... First it says that outsiders of the same deity are inspired, then it says later on that outsiders are immune if they're opposed. You can't have it both ways - either all outsiders can be affected, or they're all immune. I'd go with the former - it makes more sense for the demonic minions of Orcus (hey, he makes a good example ) are shaken when this spell is cast on them by a cleric of Pelor.

I like the part about a crisis of faith, but I'm not sure that "unwilling to worship any other deity for at least a day" would fly, since you're effectively taking away their choice here. How about if they lose all abilities gained from a divine source until they spend an hour in prayer communing with their god and reaffirming their faith, and if they don't do so within, say, 24 hours, they have to undergo atonement for letting their faith waver for so long?

If a character opposed to your religion succeeds on this saving throw, the mental strain of being forced to share your faith, even for a short time, causes 3d6 points of Wisdom damage.

You mean fails the save?

BTW, the duration on this should be one day, not Instantaneous.

Infantilize: This is a weird spell - it's just basically a super-energy drain, and too low a level. ED is L9 and only drains 2d4 levels - this one deals 2 negative levels/CL. I'd drop it to 1/level and bump the spell level up to around 13, simply because of the memory wipe part of it.

Vaticinal Taunt: Not a bad spell, but I think the permanent duration is a little much. I'd go with 1 day/level, unless you want to jack up the spell level.

Why did you set the division for who can be affected at CL 21? Why not have it as equal to or higher than your level can save for no effect, lower than your level gets no save?

You can learn the scryer’s identity with a DC 30 caster level check and return the scrying attempt with a DC 50 caster level check.

Wouldn't Spellcraft make more sense here?

 

[Lorehead]

These spells are difficult for me to balance. I appreciate your comments.

Rather than post comments on the spells in the other thread, since it'd be slightly off-topic, I decided to go here.

I noticed, first off, that they're all low-level. You have anything higher? Mine currently range from 10-25, with a few odd ones even higher.

No, I thought it'd be best to start at the bottom.

Aphasia: I can understand the part about blocking a creature's ability to understand language (that alone would make a good 7th-8th level curse), but why does it grant the caster control over the target? This a totally unrelated effect, IMO.

The idea isn't that you make the creature unable to understand anyone, it's that you make the creature unable to understand anyone but you. So, it's a permanent dominate monster that also tries to lock in your control.

Arbitrary Form: Interesting spell. I'd allow a Will save each day (cumulative penalty) until it fails, but otherwise, not bad.

High-level polymorph spells can get very tricky, but this one should be all right, I think, if the new form must be weaker. Turning enemies into monsters is a Fantasy staple.

Call Herald: This is way too low level. Consider summon monster IX - the average CR for those monsters is around 12. Solars are CR 23, titans 21, so I'd put the level for a spell like this at around 15-16 (I'd go by 2 points of CR per level after IX).

Actually, it's a more limited gate with no XP cost and no control over the character's actions.

Commune Beyond Nature: I've never used spells like commune or legend lore, so I can't really say much here.

I think the result is useful enough to justify the slot, compared to vision, but not so useful as to eclipse actual skill ranks at the same level.

Controlled disjunction: I got rid of the non-epic disjunction and replaced it with an epic version, which does much the same thing, but after reading your version, I'm going to change mine again.

Basically, I'd keep the 9th-level version, with the area effect dispel (+40 cap) or you can automatically disjoin a single spell effect, or destroy a single (non-epic) magic item with a targetted disjoining (Will save applies). This would not work against artifacts. The epic version (~L12) would do the same thing, but has no cap and can work against (lesser) artifacts.

One idea I've been thinking about is suppressing items for a number of rounds equal to your caster level minus the item's caster level. If the item's caster level is equal or greater, roll the dispel check normally. That gives players a reason to still care about their items' caster level.

Duplicate spell: Hmm... powerful spell. Maybe a bit too powerful for 10th level. I could easily imagine someone getting a free wish, wail of the banshee, gate, implosion... you get the idea.

There's nothing free about it. You prepare the spell, but you still have to supply any components or XP cost.

Basically, wish and miracle both allow substitution, and this spell is the equivalent of two levels higher. Thus, I think that being able to prepare a ninth-level spell on demand is balanced.

Epiphany: Hmm... First it says that outsiders of the same deity are inspired, then it says later on that outsiders are immune if they're opposed. You can't have it both ways - either all outsiders can be affected, or they're all immune.

No, I say that outsiders who don't share your faith are immune. I could change this, but the idea was that they're too set in their ways to be affected.

I like the part about a crisis of faith, but I'm not sure that "unwilling to worship any other deity for at least a day" would fly, since you're effectively taking away their choice here. How about if they lose all abilities gained from a divine source until they spend an hour in prayer communing with their god and reaffirming their faith, and if they don't do so within, say, 24 hours, they have to undergo atonement for letting their faith waver for so long?

This is the spell I'm least happy with, because it's very difficult to play. There isn't much guidance for what it does to someone. I'll probably re-write the effects of the spell completely to be more mechanically specific.

You mean fails the save?

No; that's what happens to enemies of your faith who succeed.

BTW, the duration on this should be one day, not Instantaneous.

No, they're still deeply affected by their experience, but they aren't under any ongoing spell. They've glimpsed the divine.

Infantilize: This is a weird spell - it's just basically a super-energy drain, and too low a level. ED is L9 and only drains 2d4 levels - this one deals 2 negative levels/CL. I'd drop it to 1/level and bump the spell level up to around 13, simply because of the memory wipe part of it.

There isn't any memory wipe. All you need is a dispel plus greater restoration.

The negative levels are primarily flavor text. I originally thought that the spell would transform you if you failed the saving throw. I dislike save-or-lose spells that ignore level, though, so I thought, why not just bestow more levels than a CR-appropriate challenge has HD? That's still better than an automatic loss. Perhaps I gave too many; the spell starts at 42. 1/level is a good number, I think; it succeeds against someone with fewer levels and fails against someone with more, and is deadly on a critical.

The higher-level version of this might do things like change your memories or rebuild your character for you.

Vaticinal Taunt: Not a bad spell, but I think the permanent duration is a little much. I'd go with 1 day/level, unless you want to jack up the spell level.

I see little point to a duration measured in weeks. Since it doesn't actually cost you a spell slot or an action, you might as well just call it permanent. It should, however, be dismissible.

Why did you set the division for who can be affected at CL 21? Why not have it as equal to or higher than your level can save for no effect, lower than your level gets no save?

Because that's the minimum level to cast vaticinal taunt. You want to blast higher-level casters with no save, you want a better version of the spell.

Wouldn't Spellcraft make more sense here?

No; this isn't a house rule. It's straight out of the SRD. These used to be Scry checks in 3.0.

 

[Kerrick]

Actually, it's a more limited gate with no XP cost and no control over the character's actions.

Okay, maybe not 15... but you're still calling a CR 20+ creature, without an XP cost - that should count for a couple levels, right? Maybe 12-13.

One idea I've been thinking about is suppressing items for a number of rounds equal to your caster level minus the item's caster level. If the item's caster level is equal or greater, roll the dispel check normally. That gives players a reason to still care about their items' caster level.

Interesting idea. Most character sheets don't list CL, though, so the DM would have to stop in the middle of the encounter and look them all up.

There's nothing free about it. You prepare the spell, but you still have to supply any components or XP cost.

Basically, wish and miracle both allow substitution, and this spell is the equivalent of two levels higher. Thus, I think that being able to prepare a ninth-level spell on demand is balanced.

Wish and miracle also have XP costs and upper limits to spells that can be duplicated, which this spell doesn't. Miracle doesn't cost XP to dupe spells, but wish apparently does (it's vaguely worded; I'd make it the same as miracle). I'd allow the caster access to any 9th level spell of his type (arcane/divine) and up to 7th in the other type (this follows the progression in limited wish/wish). I was originally going to say bump it up to L11, but since this is all the spell does (unlike wish/miracle), it might be all right at L10.

No, they're still deeply affected by their experience, but they aren't under any ongoing spell. They've glimpsed the divine.

They're shaken for one day, but yeah, you're right.

There isn't any memory wipe.

"it lets the victim live, but as an unseasoned youth with only vague recollections of past glories." <--- It's the next best thing. You're effectively erasing (locking away, if you prefer) all knowledge of feats, skills, and spells from the character's mind - that should count for something.

No; this isn't a house rule. It's straight out of the SRD. These used to be Scry checks in 3.0.

Oh. Well, I still think Spellcraft makes more sense.

 

[Lorehead]

Thanks for going over my work and making these suggestions. I'll definitely incorporate some of them. I'd like to write some higher-level spells, at some point, but I really would prefer to focus my efforts on rules that someone is using.

Okay, maybe not 15... but you're still calling a CR 20+ creature, without an XP cost - that should count for a couple levels, right? Maybe 12-13.

It's actually less than what gate can do (although I encourage DMs to allow heralds to gain levels). I think that eliminating the XP cost is enough. In this system, 13th-level spells become available at character level 33. A spell which calls a creature of 21st level or so would be highly underpowered by then.

Interesting idea. Most character sheets don't list CL, though, so the DM would have to stop in the middle of the encounter and look them all up.

If it's a published item, the DM should use the default CL from the book. If it's a homebrew, the DM should determine its caster level (normally the same as the creator's).

Wish and miracle also have XP costs and upper limits to spells that can be duplicated, which this spell doesn't. Miracle doesn't cost XP to dupe spells, but wish apparently does (it's vaguely worded; I'd make it the same as miracle). I'd allow the caster access to any 9th level spell of his type (arcane/divine) and up to 7th in the other type (this follows the progression in limited wish/wish). I was originally going to say bump it up to L11, but since this is all the spell does (unlike wish/miracle), it might be all right at L10.

Your statement that miracle has an XP cost to duplicate spells is incorrect. Your statement that it doesn't is correct.

Miracle lets you duplicate any spell that became available four levels earlier, with no XP cost. This spell also duplicate any spell that became available four levels earlier, with no XP cost. Miracle is a hugely more versatile spell, and lets you cast the duplicated spell immediately. Duplicate spell merely allows you to prepare it ahead of time. (I was concerned about giving sorcerers too much flexibility if they could duplicate any spell up to 9th level spontaneously.) A 7th-level cap is definitely too low; that's no better than miracle.

I think that the spell is actually not quite good enough; perhaps what I ought to do is give the caster the option of reducing the casting time to a swift action (allowing him to cast the spell right away) at the cost of duplicating a more limited number of spells.

"it lets the victim live, but as an unseasoned youth with only vague recollections of past glories." <--- It's the next best thing. You're effectively erasing (locking away, if you prefer) all knowledge of feats, skills, and spells from the character's mind - that should count for something.

Here's why I wrote it the way I did. I will probably go back and make a few changes.

Several lower-level spells already exist that kill characters who fail a saving throw and harm even those who succeed. One 9th-level spell even kills characters with no saving throw. A 10th-level spell needs to be as good compared to a 9th-level spell as a 9th-level spell is to a 7th-level spell. As I've previously said, it has to be worse than death, or leave something more useful to you than a dead enemy.

Reducing your foe to first level seemed to fit the bill. If you'd just killed her, a true resurrection would easily reverse the death. She might even have a spell cast ahead of time to restore her automatically. This spell hampers her more than that: she'd need to find an epic-level caster to reverse it, not just a 9th-level cleric. It also has uses out of combat; I tried to spark a few ideas in the spell description. Instead of all or nothing, it makes your enemies easier for your teammates to defeat, and gives you a much better chance to succeed on your second attempt. I think that infantilize and arbitrary form are both about equally useful, but I can't say for certain until I see them in play.

Oh. Well, I still think Spellcraft makes more sense.

I wouldn't object to that house rule, but I don't see a compelling reason to change it.

 

[Kerrick]

In this system, 13th-level spells become available at character level 33. A spell which calls a creature of 21st level or so would be highly underpowered by then.

Ooh, 33? Eek. Yeah, leave it, then.

Your statement that miracle has an XP cost to duplicate spells is incorrect. Your statement that it doesn't is correct.

No, my statement was ambiguous - I wasn't saying that miracle has an XP cost to dupe spells, it just looked like I did because I worded it badly.

Miracle lets you duplicate any spell that became available four levels earlier, with no XP cost. This spell also duplicate any spell that became available four levels earlier, with no XP cost.

Damn, I keep forgetting that gap between L18 and L22.

I think that the spell is actually not quite good enough; perhaps what I ought to do is give the caster the option of reducing the casting time to a swift action (allowing him to cast the spell right away) at the cost of duplicating a more limited number of spells.

That could work, too, though I don't use swift actions. Say, any spell he's already cast that day? It's a really powerful form of Rary's mnemonic enhancer.

Several lower-level spells already exist that kill characters who fail a saving throw and harm even those who succeed. One 9th-level spell even kills characters with no saving throw.

Whether or not that spell is balanced is debatable, but it only works if you have <100 hp.

A 10th-level spell needs to be as good compared to a 9th-level spell as a 9th-level spell is to a 7th-level spell. As I've previously said, it has to be worse than death, or leave something more useful to you than a dead enemy.

Someone once pointed out that spell levels increase by orders of magnitude - a 2nd level spell is something like twice as good as a 1st, and so on. Or maybe it was 150%, I don't remember. Point is, you're saying that a 10th level spell should be two orders of magnitude higher than a 9th level spell simply because (I'm assuming) you only gain new spells every four levels instead of 2? I don't follow... Sure, it stays in line with character power levels, but by the time you hit 15th level spells, you're making stuff that can raze mountain ranges.

Reducing your foe to first level seemed to fit the bill. If you'd just killed her, a true resurrection would easily reverse the death. She might even have a spell cast ahead of time to restore her automatically. This spell hampers her more than that: she'd need to find an epic-level caster to reverse it, not just a 9th-level cleric.

I'm not saying it shoudn't be epic - it should. I'm saying it should be a little higher level... but since you're ramping up the power level of the spells so steeply, it might be just fine where it is.

 

[Lorehead]

That could work, too, though I don't use swift actions. Say, any spell he's already cast that day? It's a really powerful form of Rary's mnemonic enhancer.

Making it a free action instead of swift would circumvent the game's limits on how many spells you can cast in a round, which is undesirable. Swift actions are in the SRD, so I might as well use them.

I was thinking more along the lines of any spell on your class list (more akin to the wish/miracle set-up) or any spell you know (which helps clerics and generalist wizards more than sorcerers).

Whether or not that spell is balanced is debatable, but it only works if you have <100 hp.

I'm aware of that.

Someone once pointed out that spell levels increase by orders of magnitude - a 2nd level spell is something like twice as good as a 1st, and so on. Or maybe it was 150%, I don't remember. Point is, you're saying that a 10th level spell should be two orders of magnitude higher than a 9th level spell simply because (I'm assuming) you only gain new spells every four levels instead of 2? I don't follow... Sure, it stays in line with character power levels, but by the time you hit 15th level spells, you're making stuff that can raze mountain ranges.

Good plot devices if you want your world to have a razed mountain range somewhere. For what it's worth, the 2E supplement Arcane Age: Netheril—Empire of Magic made 10th-level spells available at level 20, 11th-level spells available at level 35 and 12th-level spells available at level 40 (to "arcanists," who are much more like 3E sorcerers than like 3E wizards). The only 12th-level spell ever invented turns you into a god. These rules were not, of course, balanced.

We can use the current rules, and the alternative uses for these slots, to estimate the power level of these spell slots with more precision. If a player spends feats on Improved Metamagic, he could at character level 21 cast an empowered 9th-level spell, which is 150% as effective, in a 10th-level slot. By level 25, he could use a 10th-level slot for a maximized version of the same spell, or an 11th-level slot for an energy admixed version, both of which are 200% more effective. By level 29, he could use a 10th-level slot to cast the energy admixed version, or an 11th-level slot for an empowered, maximized version, or a 12th-level slot for a twinned, maximized version. The latter is 400% more effective than the original spell.

This is why I didn't bother with creating spells that just do lots of damage.

I'm not saying it shoudn't be epic - it should. I'm saying it should be a little higher level... but since you're ramping up the power level of the spells so steeply, it might be just fine where it is.

Considering how Improved Metamagic works, it wasn't me who ramped up the power level of these spells.

 

[Kerrick]

Making it a free action instead of swift would circumvent the game's limits on how many spells you can cast in a round, which is undesirable.

No it doesn't - a swift action is the same thing as a free action, except that you can only take one of them per turn. According to the description, "casting a quickened spell is a sqift action" which means you still can't cast more than two spells/round.

We can use the current rules, and the alternative uses for these slots, to estimate the power level of these spell slots with more precision. If a player spends feats on Improved Metamagic, he could at character level 21 cast an empowered 9th-level spell, which is 150% as effective, in a 10th-level slot.

Okay, 150% sounds about right.

This is why I didn't bother with creating spells that just do lots of damage.

Yeah... those get boring after awhil. We've got several damage-dealing spells, but they're rather... unique in how they do it: a lava cauldron (usually used to destroy a small town or city), a huge fire-breathing skull, or a burst of disintegration. Those are all relatively low-level, though - 14 and under. The high-end stuff is the really cool spells - making a floating castle, creating a demiplane, manipulating the forces of nature.

Considering how Improved Metamagic works, it wasn't me who ramped up the power level of these spells.

Yeah, making it so you could take it multiple times with no cap is just absurd, even for an epic feat. I would have limited it to maybe 3. Or maybe just once - that's a huge boost right there.