Resurrection and Revive Dead

[Dark Eternal]

Actually, I have no qualms about nixing this kind of abuse outright. The gods would not have looked kindly upon such a disrespectful application of their mighty miracles... and I don't think the characters in that particular campaign would have had any problem understanding why. I'm just glad you guys never tested my resolve....

You know...

...nah, I'm not even going to say anything about it.

I will say, however, that if ever there's been a cleric who could explain something like this to a deity, then I can clearly see Khazdand sitting down with Alleghandam (sp?) and saying "Hey, you would have tried the same thing in my shoes... err... boots..."

And I wouldn't say we never tested your resove...

 

[Orryn Emrys]

I've been considering requiring my PCs (and most NPCs as well) to go through some "NPC" levels before starting a regular PC class. So in essence the PC classes would almost be like a kind of PrC. Maybe a wizard could only be a wizard after he's taken a couple of levels of expert and gained skills in various languages, spellcraft, arcane knowledge, alchemy, and so forth. So a first level wizard might actually be an Exp2/Wiz1. Now, though, I have to consider how much equipment and what challenges are right for someone of that level.

To be honest, I'd considered a similar approach... as I am attempting to develop my current 'campaing setting awareness' to emphasize the idea that the pwer levels my players are accustomed to in their previous campaign are fairly unheard of in this one. Powerful NPC's will invariably include several NPC class levels as well as standard class levels. In the end, I decided that I am trying to set the heroes apart from the rest of the world just a little bit... using the standard classes (as standard as they are with the other changes I've implemented) really seems to help promote the basic feel I'm looking for in this regard.

Another example, I am thinking that I want clerical healing to be less effective -- using the method from Wheel of Time, I want cure wounds spells to turn hp into subdual damage. This cascaded into a whole bunch of other issues -- do I want to mess with the Heal skill and make it more viable, what about Herbalism and alchemical concoctions, etc. Also, with healing less available, combat is deadlier. The "shape" of adventuring changes -- fewer combats, maybe fewer "big bad boss with 6-10 henchmen set piece battles in the deepest room in the dungeon" type encounters, more running away, more need for safe places to recuperate, maybe PCs don't range far from civilization, stuff like that.

Strangely, with all the other changes I've implemented, and the fact that about half my group are Wheel of Time gamers, this idea never occurred to me. Fortunately, I haven't introduced any clerics into my game yet... I might just look into this approach, regardless of the amount of work it would take.

Here's another option: what if the "highest level" that a person (or PCs anyway) can achieve isn't 20th but somewhere around 12th? That could certainly limit the amount and power of magic available, magic items, etc. But then you might want to mess with the XP system so each of those 12 levels lasts a bit longer than they do in core 3e.

I'm gonna try to get the same feel without limiting the advancement so. I've cut back on experience accrual a little bit, and implemented a unique system for level advancement that requires the characters to work at it a bit. Consequentially, spellcasting levels will take a lot more work to acquire... so I expect to see most spellcasting characters take levels in other classes. This helps to promote the 'low-magic' feel I'm looking for. Additionally, I'm implementing the Elements of Magic system... with a few tweaks here and there... to give magic a 'rawer, more elemental' feel... and some of the Wild Spellcraft material to add an element of danger to pursuing the craft.

It's all very experimental, of course, but the players seem to dig that.

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

I think that if these spells are getting over used or give the campaign an element of cheeseiness, then limit them. I think the suggestion that only certain gods will allow access to these spells is a good idea. Those gods could be both good and evil. It's a way for them to gain more followers. "Hey if you work for me death isn't permenent". The other thing that I think is a good idea is raising the lvl of the spell. Limits it's use while still allowing players to cure death.

 

[Dark Eternal]

Originally posted by Orryn Emrys:
...the pwer levels my players are accustomed to in their previous campaign are fairly unheard of in this one.

Which is nice. We all got waaaay too out of whack during the last campaign, and it's very nice to tone it down and concentrate on characters who are just people, rather than Mighty Heros Of The Gods.

And, of course, there won't be any of that silly talk about raising the dead in this game, either... everyone knows that when you die, you're dead. And then my dwarf throws you in the bonfire, before your corpse tries to kill him.

 

[Dark Eternal]

...I think the suggestion that only certain gods will allow access to these spells is a good idea. Those gods could be both good and evil. It's a way for them to gain more followers. "Hey if you work for me death isn't permenent"....

And you know, I always thought that is was the entire reason that gods allowed the dead to be revived in the first place. Why would any deity allow a priest to raise someone who didn't serve that diety's causes?

 

[Malcolm]

Rule that we use in my home campaign, and has been adopted by my 4 other spin-off groups = Aging.
This harkens back to 1st Ed.

Cast Raise Dead = Caster ages 1 year, recipient ages 1 yr.
Cast Ress = Caster ages 5 years, recipient ages 1 yr.
Cast True Ress = Caster ages 10 years, recipient ages 1yr.

This aging is reflective of the age-type of the species casting (i.e. Elves who live to 1000 yrs get 100yrs aging for True Res)

I love it. My Players Love it. Believe it or not, I thought there would be groaning, fights, etc. Nope. Those that are new (age17) to those that are old-school (Age33, gaming for 20yrs) all agree that as long as the rules apply to both them And the NPCs they like them.
Makes them feel less like they are playing a reloadable pc game.

Other variations:
1.) Haste (and MassH, and Battletide) = ages the recipient 1 month each time. (This cuts down on Constant Speed items)
2.) Permanency = 1 yr from the caster
3.) Limited Wish = 3 yrs
4.) Wish = 10 yrs
5.) Gate = 10 yrs
6.) Miracle = 10 yrs

note: this does Not improve or age a Dragon in any case with any of these castings. Dragons being inherently magical and ageless do not suffer these penalties.

 

[aurin777]

People did a very good job covering all of the questions asked after my post:

Why is it that DM's hate these spells (teleport and raise/resurrect)?

Why do DM's want their party to trudge from location to location? Is it really that fun to work out encumbrance and travelling rates and food rations and water supplies?

Why do DM's think that death has to be eternal?

Why is death the worst thing that the average DM thinks he can do to a bad guy?

Why do no DM's take advantage of the 10 year/level limit on resurrection?

Why is it that DM's almost never use resurrect or raise dead to recall their BBEGs?

Why must the players be the only ones mildly inconvenienced by death?

--
But it all boils down to one thing: I like the epic feel of the game. I want the players to have to trudge from place to place over land and deal with the hardships of travel - it keeps them grounded and makes them realize that the world is vast. It isn't just a spell to move from one place to another at a whim. If death isn't perminant, there is no true desprite struggle in battle. I mean, if I get waxed by the dragon? Meh, it only costs me some gold and I'm back in business. If PCs can just keep coming back for more, the rewards they receive for being triumphant arn't as sweet.
~~Brandon

 

[Remathilis]

Here is my problem with removing Raise/Res/True Res

Disintergate/Death Spell/Finger of Death/etc.

Any spell that is literally save or die NEEDS to be banned from a game with difficult ressurection. It is unfortunately too easy to get your Save DCs high for these spells and wipe out a opponent a round. Even some protection magic (death ward) doesn't save you outright.

As for Teleport, its great if your 10th level party wants to stay in one kingdom, but most of the games I've been in (different groups, different DMs) implement some form of distance travel at higher level to move the group to more difficult or exciting locations.

DM's can control these magics, but it usually requires other magics. Dimensional Anchors, Teleport Wards, gods of death, etc, all can remove these pesky problems, without removing the benefits of the magic (poor dice rolls, quicker transport).

YMMV, however.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

I have to agree with Remathilis on this one. If a GM wants to run a game where death is mostly or completely permanent, characters need to have a reasonable chance of avoiding it (assuming intelligent play on their part). As has been discussed ad nauseum, save or die spells cause all sorts of grief at any level of play. Throw in dragons, mind flayers, etc. and a party is going to be in trouble at some point.

Just one example: How many characters could begin the module Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and survive to the end, if death was permanent? That's why *some* campaigns need these spells.

 

[pogre]

I use the spells, but there is always a penalty in my campaign. Anytime you come back you lose a level. What's true res for? For the times when res won't get the job done. The XP bounce seems to be enough pain for my group.