Rethinking Reflex and AC...

[ShinRyuuBR]

It's simple: You're playing a class that you don't want to expend precious points in Dex or Int. You already get a 3 point advantage from light armor, at least. Your low Reflex Defense can be compensated with a shield. And we also know that not only will the fighter eventually learn to use plate armor, he also will eventually be able to add his Dex bonus as well.

 

[breschau]

Problem I see, is why would anyone want to wear heavy armor, epecially chain or scale?

So they get the same protection without having to dump that many points into a stat. That and because it fits their character concept.

Hide +3, 1st level twink can start with a +5 Dex bonus, still carry a shield and be equal to the Plate wearer. Now let's go two attribute increases later and now this Hide wearer is getting an additional +1 to his AC over the plate wearer (assuming ROUNDDOWN(CHARLVL/2) does effect AC) and the it just gets worse over time. Take this to a Wizard, make it INT instead of DEX and well there really is nothing that gets close. You are maxing both your main DEFENSIVE attribute and OFFENSIVE attribute at the same time.

Yes, hide and 20 Dex gets you that same as plate. So what? The trouble with the rest of you example is that everyone gets the same level based bonuses, whatever they are. So it doesn't get worse over time, unless you're comparing a 10th level character to a 1st. But, later in his career the heavy armor wearer has the potential to get unique bonuses for wearing heavy armor and/or getting that stat bonus back.

 

[fafhrd]

Yes, hide and 20 Dex gets you that same as plate. So what? The trouble with the rest of you example is that everyone gets the same level based bonuses, whatever they are. So it doesn't get worse over time, unless you're comparing a 10th level character to a 1st.

I think his concern is that not the 1/2 level bonus to defenses but that the hide wearer will continue to put points into dex or int, while the plate wearer can't get an increase to AC through stat bumps. Over time, without additional advantages to heavy armors, the light armor wearer who contines to max out dex will be harder to hit than the heavies.

 

[Kordeth]

I think his concern is that not the 1/2 level bonus to defenses but that the hide wearer will continue to put points into dex or int, while the plate wearer can't get an increase to AC through stat bumps. Over time, without additional advantages to heavy armors, the light armor wearer who contines to max out dex will be harder to hit than the heavies.

Sure, but when you consider that the heavy-armor wearer doesn't have to burn vast numbers of ability boosts and initial attribute point-buys on one ability score to keep his AC up, you realize it's not actually a problem. Sure, the light-fighter is pretty well up there as far as AC goes, but where he's burned a lot of points to get a single 20, the heavy armor fighter can turn around and invest those points in, say, a couple of 15s, or a 16 and a couple of 14s, or some other combination that gives him an edge in other areas--and since it's been confirmed that stat-boosting items don't exist in 4E, that's a big investment in actual, finite character resources.

Seems pretty balanced to me.

 

[Stalker0]

Sure, but when you consider that the heavy-armor wearer doesn't have to burn vast numbers of ability boosts and initial attribute point-buys on one ability score to keep his AC up, you realize it's not actually a problem. Sure, the light-fighter is pretty well up there as far as AC goes, but where he's burned a lot of points to get a single 20, the heavy armor fighter can turn around and invest those points in, say, a couple of 15s, or a 16 and a couple of 14s, or some other combination that gives him an edge in other areas--and since it's been confirmed that stat-boosting items don't exist in 4E, that's a big investment in actual, finite character resources.

Thing is, its not likely he's sacrificing that much. Let's take a look at the ranger. With a high dex, he has a great bonus to hit and damage with his bow, a terrific initiative, very powerful reflex defense, and possibly the highest AC in the party.

And the reality is player's want options. If I want to be the big armor guy, I want to have a big AC. And depending on the player, I want to have the biggest AC. Now I'm willing to pay for it, obviously it takes money, and I lose speed, and I gain ACP. But if I want that AC, I had better be able to get it.

If the most efficient AC build is the bow guy with some chain padding, then that's just bogus to me.

 

[breschau]

And the reality is player's want options. If I want to be the big armor guy, I want to have a big AC. And depending on the player, I want to have the biggest AC. Now I'm willing to pay for it, obviously it takes money, and I lose speed, and I gain ACP. But if I want that AC, I had better be able to get it.

But, you're assuming that there won't be a feat/talent/whatever that will grant the plate fighter bonuses as he advances. As was already mentioned, dumping Dex to 20 will mean the character has less options because his other stats will be lacking.

If the most efficient AC build is the bow guy with some chain padding, then that's just bogus to me.

There are 6 pregens available right now. We don't have the complete rule set. High Dex and decent armor has always done well when compared to low Dex and the best armor. We can't possibly know what "the most efficient AC build" is at this point. I started this thread to generate conversation about the PHB text and AC.

 

[Derro]

Maybe Hide and Plate give a bonus to Fort?

Is there precedent for that? I know SWSE had a Fort bonus from armor but I don't see any indicators for 4e. Which suits me. Armor helping you resist poison or a death-like effect just seems wrong to me.

 

[Stalker0]

But, you're assuming that there won't be a feat/talent/whatever that will grant the plate fighter bonuses as he advances.

I agree on this point. I have had this debate on a few threads now, and it seems very likely we don't have the whole picture at this point. My point however is that if this is the main picture on how AC works, then its got a lot to be desired because of the examples we've seen.

 

[Saishu_Heiki]

Is there precedent for that? I know SWSE had a Fort bonus from armor but I don't see any indicators for 4e. Which suits me. Armor helping you resist poison or a death-like effect just seems wrong to me.

It makes sense in a tech heavy setting. The flightsuit has a limited ability to inject antitoxins, or seal wounds, etc.

In a fantasy setting, it is not as easy to explain why this would happen except through the judicious use of the "its magic!" stick. Perhaps it could work as a side benefit of one of the named armors (godplate, etc).

 

[Derro]

It makes sense in a tech heavy setting. The flightsuit has a limited ability to inject antitoxins, or seal wounds, etc.

Very good point. I had not even considered that. As a special effect it makes sense but I never considered it in that context.

In a fantasy setting, it is not as easy to explain why this would happen except through the judicious use of the "its magic!" stick. Perhaps it could work as a side benefit of one of the named armors (godplate, etc).

Divorcing magical special effects from basic equipment is a must in my eyes. It would make sense with the named armors but otherswise I hope we don't see it as a broad rule.

BTW: You have a magic stick? Sweet.