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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8809184" data-attributes="member: 93670">point 2 should probably be broken into 2a &amp; 2b:<ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">2A.&quot; Foes are usually good on 1-4 saves, sort of based on epicness.&nbsp; So PCs who are focused around the same sort of saves (like bards) will find themselves good against some types of foes and poor against others.&quot;&nbsp; <ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=0&amp;filter-class=1&amp;filter-search=&amp;filter-save-required=2&amp;filter-verbal=&amp;filter-somatic=&amp;filter-material=&amp;filter-concentration=&amp;filter-ritual=&amp;filter-sub-class=" target="_blank">Bard dex save spells</a>. (4)</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=0&amp;filter-class=1&amp;filter-search=&amp;filter-save-required=3&amp;filter-verbal=&amp;filter-somatic=&amp;filter-material=&amp;filter-concentration=&amp;filter-ritual=&amp;filter-sub-class=" target="_blank">Bard con save spells</a> (6)</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=0&amp;filter-class=1&amp;filter-search=&amp;filter-save-required=4&amp;filter-verbal=&amp;filter-somatic=&amp;filter-material=&amp;filter-concentration=&amp;filter-ritual=&amp;filter-sub-class=" target="_blank">Bard int save spells</a>. (6)</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=0&amp;filter-class=1&amp;filter-search=&amp;filter-save-required=6&amp;filter-verbal=&amp;filter-somatic=&amp;filter-material=&amp;filter-concentration=&amp;filter-ritual=&amp;filter-sub-class=" target="_blank">Bard Cha save spells</a>. (6)</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=0&amp;filter-class=1&amp;filter-search=&amp;filter-save-required=5&amp;filter-verbal=&amp;filter-somatic=&amp;filter-material=&amp;filter-concentration=&amp;filter-ritual=&amp;filter-sub-class=" target="_blank">Bard wis save spells</a>. (31)</li>
</ul></li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">2B &quot;Classes with wide spell list have the meaningful choice of going for &quot;the best&quot; spells, or going for spells with a wide variety of saving throws even if they have overlap in effect (like AoE damage) to hunt for poor saves.&quot;</li>
</ul>On 2a, 31 is &gt; than 0+4+6+6=22 by far but that distribution is not significantly out of the ordinary for other casters simply because bards have most of the int save spells &amp; the rest comes down to the general save distributions across spells. I don't think 5e even approached a point where 2a is the case &amp; the split is too fine grained to meaningfully target.On 2b wotc deliberately murdered that out of the gate with &quot;<a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/177-spell-spotlight-fireball" target="_blank">iconic</a>&quot; spells &amp; overuse of concentration even if the save distribution had been&nbsp; diverse &amp; clear enough to really accomplish in a way that didn't feel like guesswork with minimal returns that are rarely much more than a point or two of difference thanks to so many monsters not actually being proficient in any saves.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 8809184, member: 93670"] point 2 should probably be broken into 2a & 2b: [LIST] [*][B]2A[/B]." [I]Foes are usually good on 1-4 saves, sort of based on epicness. So PCs who are focused around the same sort of saves (like bards) will find themselves good against some types of foes and poor against others.[/I]" [LIST] [*][URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=0&filter-class=1&filter-search=&filter-save-required=2&filter-verbal=&filter-somatic=&filter-material=&filter-concentration=&filter-ritual=&filter-sub-class=']Bard dex save spells[/URL]. (4) [*][URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=0&filter-class=1&filter-search=&filter-save-required=3&filter-verbal=&filter-somatic=&filter-material=&filter-concentration=&filter-ritual=&filter-sub-class=']Bard con save spells[/URL] (6) [*][URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=0&filter-class=1&filter-search=&filter-save-required=4&filter-verbal=&filter-somatic=&filter-material=&filter-concentration=&filter-ritual=&filter-sub-class=']Bard int save spells[/URL]. (6) [*][URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=0&filter-class=1&filter-search=&filter-save-required=6&filter-verbal=&filter-somatic=&filter-material=&filter-concentration=&filter-ritual=&filter-sub-class=']Bard Cha save spells[/URL]. (6) [*][URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=0&filter-class=1&filter-search=&filter-save-required=5&filter-verbal=&filter-somatic=&filter-material=&filter-concentration=&filter-ritual=&filter-sub-class=']Bard wis save spells[/URL]. (31) [/LIST] [*][B]2B[/B] "[I]Classes with wide spell list have the meaningful choice of going for "the best" spells, or going for spells with a wide variety of saving throws even if they have overlap in effect (like AoE damage) to hunt for poor saves.[/I]" [/LIST] On 2a, 31 is > than 0+4+6+6=22 by far but that distribution is not significantly out of the ordinary for other casters simply because bards have most of the int save spells & the rest comes down to the general save distributions across spells. I don't think 5e even approached a point where 2a is the case & the split is too fine grained to meaningfully target. On 2b wotc deliberately murdered that out of the gate with "[URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/177-spell-spotlight-fireball']iconic[/URL]" spells & overuse of concentration even [I]if[/I] the save distribution had been diverse & clear enough to really accomplish in a way that didn't feel like guesswork with minimal returns that are rarely much more than a point or two of difference thanks to so many monsters not actually being proficient in any saves. [/QUOTE]

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