Returned Abeir "Continent"

[Hunter In Darkness]

I do have one question: How many people reading this thread either have, or know someone who has, played a Maztica campaign in the past ten years? Either the PCs visited, or the campaign was centered there?

As a game setting, it just had very little draw, from my recollection, as cool as the idea was conceptually. I hazard a guess they wanted to replace it with something that someone might want to set a campaign in, or have PCs visit.

The issues is there was no need to replace it, look how much uncharted land there is. It was an unneeded change that was done just to be doing it.

 

[Dragonhelm]

That already exists and was done better than Greenwood could ever do:

Tékumel :: The World of the Petal Throne

but try getting people to play. Its not all that easy. I've thought about putting Tsolyanu next to my European analog to see if that would make it more interesting.

To give credit where due, Maztica is the brainchild of Doug Niles. He's the one who wrote the novels, did the boxed set, and pushed for its creation to begin with.

Thanks for the link, btw. I'll check that out.

I do have one question: How many people reading this thread either have, or know someone who has, played a Maztica campaign in the past ten years? Either the PCs visited, or the campaign was centered there?

I had my players go there once, and that was around 15 - 20 years ago. I saw it only as a one-shot.

I do see some merit with the eagle knights and jaguar knights. As for the gods, I could see Qotal being a half-dragon/half-couatl aspect of some other deity (Bahamut?). Otherwise...meh.

Plus, Maztica is kind of a cool name. Maya + Aztec + Inca = Maztica.

I just think it needed to be developed differently to make it more interesting. I certainly wouldn't run a campaign set there, but I wouldn't mind visiting a place with an Aztec theme, if done right.

As a game setting, it just had very little draw, from my recollection, as cool as the idea was conceptually. I hazard a guess they wanted to replace it with something that someone might want to set a campaign in, or have PCs visit.

I think that's it exactly. Of course, they could have spent the time to remake Maztica to make it into something people would want to game in as well as add the new landmass. Perhaps, though, this was the easier route to go.

Very nice that those downloads can still be found. Now lets get this into 4e. Lets revise it and make it more compelling. Look at what Eberron did with Stormreach being the gateway to exotic Xen'drik and do the same for Maztica. Give the Faerunian cultures a compelling reason to visit there. A maguffin that serves the same purpose that the dragonshards and lost relics do in Eberron and then integrate it closely into the core setting the same way they did with Returned Abeir being integrated tightly into core Realms by making it the homeland of the Dragonborn and even dropping one Abeir nation smack dab in the middle of Faerun (though that was a bit of a kludgy approach).

This might be a good project for someone to tackle. There's a dedicated Maztica area on the Piazza (under Forgotten Realms). You might also approach Candlekeep.

 

[Orius]

Much of the Forgotten Realms, while being very familiar, isn't directly analogical. Actually, most of Greenwoodian Faerun - it is not as much Medieval Europe as it is quintessential D&D Land. Waterdeep (or Greyhawk, for that matter) are not realistic Medieval cities, but they are classic D&D cities.

Problem is that some of the Realms stuff outside Faerun and Zahkara are pretty bland rip-off of real world stuff. The history section in the Maztica box is pretty much cut-and-paste pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, and the Horde came off as bland (how the heck do you get bland out of Mongols?)

Plus, Maztica is kind of a cool name. Maya + Aztec + Inca = Maztica.

TVtropes calls it Mayincatec. With a reference to Maztica of course.

 

[Mercurius]

Problem is that some of the Realms stuff outside Faerun and Zahkara are pretty bland rip-off of real world stuff. The history section in the Maztica box is pretty much cut-and-paste pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, and the Horde came off as bland (how the heck do you get bland out of Mongols?)

Yes, exactly--which is why I don't like fantasy analogs of real world cultures. You simply cannot match the richness of our world. The joy of world building is that you get to create something new; the joy of gaming in a fantasy world is you get to go somewhere you wouldn't otherwise get to go to.

Nothing wrong with gaming in a fantasized version of our world, but might as well make it Teotihuacan rather than "Miztecapotitlitl."

 

[wingsandsword]

Fantasy analogues are an integral part of the Realms, even within Faerun. Even places that aren't copies of real-world places are copies of other fantasy places.

Chessenta is an analogue of Greece, Durpar is an analogue of India, Mulhorrand is a very thinly veiled analogue of Egypt, Unther is a copy of Mesopotamia.

Luiren is Tolkien's Shire more-or-less copied to the Realms.

To me, the Forgotten Realms is defined as a highly detailed collage of real-world analogues and fantasy stereotypes knitted together with a few uniquely Faerunian elements of realmslore. Removing the real-world analogues, scrapping the detailed lore, and re-writing much of the uniquely Faerunian elements while inserting 4e-isms (like Dragonborn) was breaking the back of the Realms and bowdlerizing it into another indistinct D&D setting.

 

[Bluenose]

Fantasy analogues are an integral part of the Realms, even within Faerun. Even places that aren't copies of real-world places are copies of other fantasy places.

Chessenta is an analogue of Greece, Durpar is an analogue of India, Mulhorrand is a very thinly veiled analogue of Egypt, Unther is a copy of Mesopotamia.

Luiren is Tolkien's Shire more-or-less copied to the Realms.

To me, the Forgotten Realms is defined as a highly detailed collage of real-world analogues and fantasy stereotypes knitted together with a few uniquely Faerunian elements of realmslore. Removing the real-world analogues, scrapping the detailed lore, and re-writing much of the uniquely Faerunian elements while inserting 4e-isms (like Dragonborn) was breaking the back of the Realms and bowdlerizing it into another indistinct D&D setting.

Slightly modified analogues of real-world cultures and fantasy stereotypes seem pretty much like the way most D&D settings are written.

 

[wingsandsword]

Slightly modified analogues of real-world cultures and fantasy stereotypes seem pretty much like the way most D&D settings are written.

Really?

Where were the analogues of Egypt and Central America (for example) in Greyhawk? It's pretty much all fantasy pseudo-Europe, at least everything I've ever seen of that setting (except for the 1e version of Kara Tur which places it on this world instead of Toril)

Where were the analogues of Imperial China and India (or other places) in Dragonlance?

Where were the analogues of India and Arabia (ect.) in Birthright? If there was an official D&D world that was more western-European in style, I can't think of it.

Where were the analogues of Feudal Japan (ect.) in Eberron? It doesn't even really have analogues of medieval Europe, more like 19th and early 20th century Europe at best.

You could have a prime-world with analogues of anything in Planescape or Spelljammer, but those settings were intentionally very open ended and designed to let the DM insert new sub-settings like cultural analogues at will (but even then, none were in the canonical texts that I know of).

The only other official D&D setting I can think of with a pattern of real-world analogues is Mystara, which was more of the Basic D&D setting that had an AD&D treatment performed in the 2e era.

 

[Klaus]

I don't mind real-world-inspired cultures, as long as the campaign takes into account the effects of different real-world technologies being exchanged. For instance, most RPG settings are based on Europe circa the Dark Ages (with some Middle Ages/Renaissance thrown in, like plate armor and universities). If you include an analog to Ancient Egypt, you have to advance the "Egyptian" technology to match the rest of the setting, with lamellar armor, steel kopeshes, etc.

 

[Dragonhelm]

Where were the analogues of Egypt and Central America (for example) in Greyhawk?

Greyhawk's version of Egypt is called Erypt, located in Western Oerik.

 

[Bluenose]

Really?

Where were the analogues of Egypt and Central America (for example) in Greyhawk? It's pretty much all fantasy pseudo-Europe, at least everything I've ever seen of that setting (except for the 1e version of Kara Tur which places it on this world instead of Toril)

Zindia is central America. "tropical land where rich cities rise from steaming jungles." More Maya than Aztec, frankly.