Review of Monte's 3.5 Review...

The Sigil said:

quote:
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* And the big one: The vast majority of the art in the books is the same. So we're expected to plunk down $90 for three books that cost us $60 three years ago, and most of the art is the same?
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Again, this goes back to the theme, "WotC is just in it for the money." For me, at least, it's gotten tired by this point.

--The Sigil

Um, bunk. This and other points aren't just harping on wizards is money grubbing. This is harping on exactly what a review is supposed to harp on. Are you getting your monies worth.

For example if I were to review a sandwich/bakery near my work and I were to harp on the fact that there isn't enough substantial content(meat) and too much filler(sprouts) for the cost of 8$ in the roast beef sandwich.(though the blue cheese is a nice touch). I'm not harping on them being money grubbing i'm harping on the sandwich not giving you enough value for your money.
 

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talinthas said:
dude, you did _not_ just question Eric Noah.

He's...ERIC NOAH!!!

I mean, the guy single handedly fueled the fire of third edition and brought gaming back to life. With both legs tied behind his back. Blindfolded. While holding a kitten and helping an old lady cross the street, thus preventing any cars from getting attacks of opportunity.

Eric Knows All.
Bow before him, as he is the d to your 20.

I heard that he is an epic loremaster tasked with caretaking a secret vault that puts the Library of Alexandria to shame. It holds the Necronomicon, the Book of Vile Darkness and a pre-release version of D&D 4.0.

I also heard that he got multiple attacks of opportunity on the same foe through combat reflexes before 3.5 came out, the cheater.
 

Monte has updated his review for the reasons he mentions here:

http://www.montecook.com/arch_review26_add.html

The change is mainly an expansion of the positive comments Monte made. I pasted them here for ease of reference:

The Good Things
I'll start with the things I really liked. Some of these might cross the line I discussed above regarding the differences between revisions and editions, but let's move past that and take them on their own merits.


In no particular order:

* It now costs half as much for wizards to scribe spells into their spellbooks. The cost in 3.0 unfairly penalized the wizard for adding new spells to his repertoire. The 3.5 price allows the wizard to more adequately dwell on his strength, which is having a huge list of spells to draw upon. It took a lot of play to realize this, and I wish we had realized it earlier.


* Rangers and barbarians have more interesting abilities at higher levels. It comes as no surprise to regulars at montecook.com that I regret that we didn't spend more time in particular on the ranger. I've created two variant rangers myself. The 3.5 ranger shares a few things in common with my variant rangers, but also does some interesting new things. Basically, the 3.5 ranger can go off on two tracks-one for archers and one for two-weapon wielders.


* Bards have more of their own unique spells (and are a better class to play in general). Much like with rangers, I have felt in the past that the bard is somewhat underpowered. I don't think the bard was as bad off as the ranger, but he needed a bit of a boost. When I did a variant bard in Book of Eldritch Might II, I created a whole new subsystem for magical music. I said back then, though, that of course the Player's Handbook had no room for such a thing, even had I thought to do it way back when. The 3.5 designers did the next best thing, though, and gave the bard more spells unique to him such as glibness, song of discord, and sympathetic vibration.


* There are rules for special familiars like pseudo dragons. This is the kind of really interesting thing that makes D&D so great, and is, in my opinion, great DMG material.


* Sorcerers can change out their known spells when they become useless (or simply were bad choices). Not much more to say about this. It's just good.


* Druid animal companions advance as the druid does. While the druid could always get better companions, it's a better flavor issue to have the same ones advance, so that you can grow attached to them. It's more personal, and it synchs up better with the leadership/cohort rules.


* Githyanki and githzerai are in the Monster Manual. I'd wanted them in there in the first place, but they were saved for the Psionics Handbook. They're very interesting monsters and deserve to be right there in the D&D spotlight.


* Demons and devils are tougher. The big problem with fiends in 3.0 was that they had a lot of cool powers but didn't last long enough in the fight to use them. Now they are truly formidable foes.


* Monster skills and feats are more standardized. There were methods for generating monster skills and feats in 3.0, but they didn't work like characters and they all worked differently from each other, based on monster type. Now, I'm certain that the change was made to help facilitate monster characters -- monsters with classes -- but I like it more because it's more cohesive.


* Harm and heal are more balanced. Harm being the more broken of the two -- a real dragon-killer -- these spells now have level-based limits on how much they harm or heal.


* Blade barrier is now playable. It was a messed-up spell before, something that simply slipped through the 3.0 cracks. A clear goof on our part. And now it works nicely.


* Some potions are now oils, helping the logic of what can and can't be a potion. Again, clearly one of those things I would have liked to go back and do myself, this is all handled quite elegantly now. I was never satisfied with the fact that flavor issues -- based on what had and hadn't been a potion in 1st Edition and 2nd Edition -- unnecessarily narrowed the options for what spells could be made into potions. (Here's a "behind the curtain" secret about potions-nothing about the limiting of potions, price-wise, has anything to do with balance. It's all flavor. There's nothing unbalancing even if you wanted to make potions of magic missile. It's just weird.)


* The glossaries and indexes are even better. They just are. The glossary explanations can get a little wordy, but most of the additional verbiage is really helpful.


Now, you'll notice three things when reading the above points. First, these are some big issues, and they're all good. These good points not only outnumber my criticisms, but they are far more significant issues. Second, each of them points out a shortcoming of 3.0, which I worked on. They fix mistakes we made-that I made. Third, some of these good points contradict much of what I said above about the changes of 3.5 being too great and too pervasive. I still believe that to be true, but once you get past that matter of principle and simply look at each change on its own merit (as in, if they'd come about a few years down the road in a new edition rather than in a revision), they are demonstrably good.
 

The Sigil said:
Monte's article (not necessarily Monte himself) seems to me to be slanted towards denigrating 3.5e - he spends a lot of time reminding us that "it's all about the money"

And you know, Spence, he was well justified each time he said something like that. As the saying goes, if the shoe fits...

The classic argument here is WotC has a right to make money. Heck, I think I've said that many times myself.

That said, if they are going to sell us something, they really need to sell us something worth buying. That is what I see as the fundamental point here. I agree with Monte on most of his assessements (the biggest exception being that I totally disagree with him on animal buff spells), and what it boils down to is that fundamentally too much of this book was not needed and/or was actually harmful to the state of the game, and there was too little there to justify a whole new purchase.

But seeing Monte's article, I can definitely tell you it's biased (the article, not Monte) and slanted... again, based simply on the amount of verbiage given to the "Bad" when you consider that he actually found by number more good changes than bad.

Or perhaps, if you don't see how the criticism are justified, perhaps you are the one that is biased. I think Monte spends a fair amount of time considering what was authentically positive and needed, but the things that were unneeded and harmful are pretty hard to ignore.

I disagree with your assessment of his review. I think he was spot on in most of his points.
 

jasamcarl said:
And does anyone else find the gripe of about the revision coming too soon at odds with the compatibility issue.

No.

The earlier it comes, the less of a back catalogue that requires conversion/revision. Seems simple.

That would be a credible point if the scale of the revision were comensurate with the short time between revisions. It's not.

The fact that the changes are rather large for a short time is, in fact, the root of the compatability issue. I have had less time to "turn over" characters made with the old rules gradually, and am forced to update them drastically, sudduenly.
 

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