Reviewing, Revising, and Finalizing Prehistoric Animals and Dinosaur Ecology

[Steinhauser]

I'd been giving a lot of thought to changing the dromaeosaurs in the MM for a while. I'm glad I found this thread.

Personally I think 4 HD is kind of steep. It's almost lion HD, and left over from when they were Large (pre-errata). Maybe 3 HD - comparable in size (and threat posed) to a leopard.

The damage is similar, left over from when they were Large. I'd guess they should do at most 1d6/talons and 1d4/bite. They won't be doing as much as a leopard with their bites, since it wasn't their main hunting weapon. Talons are mainly for rakes, as mentioned. (Technically a stab rather than a rake.) 15 Str, as Cleon suggested, is a good approximation, and Con should be greatly reduced too (they're birds after all).

If you want the deinonychus to be able to tackle larger prey, my idea is to give them Improved Grab (claw) and, if they hit, the ability to substitute a Jump (or perhaps Climb) check for the first grapple check. However, the reality of their pack hunting is questionable, and as solo hunters, pounce (+rake) is preferable. Either way I like the idea of the claw being primary and the talons being a rake, since I can't imagine them lashing out with feet (like a kangaroo!?) without first trying to grab on.

I reduced all skill bonuses to +4 (from +8). But it's probably not that big a deal. I also reduced them to 1 Int, based on the size of their brains. Personally I don't think any dinosaur would have had 2 Int. But that's just me.

Speed, I'll let you guys handle. My house rules still use 60 ft.

 

[hamishspence]

Well going by my size scale it looks more like a Utahraptor would be Big (~16-18 feet, 250-400 pounds) to Large (~20-24 feet, 500-1000 pounds), but I've tweaked the standard Utahraptors up to Large to match the revised SRD size.

main reason I said large was weight- usually estimated at around 1500 pounds.

Even for a 21 ft Utahraptor, it's chunky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utahraptor

Unfortunately it's only known from very scanty remains- so all weight estimates are pretty speculative. Maybe the similarly sized Achillobator will narrow down the weight estimates some.

Using 1500 lb and 21 ft long, and the ratio between 21 ft and 16 ft, I get a ballpark figure of about 660 lb for a 16 ft Utahraptor.

Not too shabby for a Large creature- basically big-tiger sized.

 

[Cleon]

I'd been giving a lot of thought to changing the dromaeosaurs in the MM for a while. I'm glad I found this thread.

Personally I think 4 HD is kind of steep. It's almost lion HD, and left over from when they were Large (pre-errata). Maybe 3 HD - comparable in size (and threat posed) to a leopard.

The damage is similar, left over from when they were Large. I'd guess they should do at most 1d6/talons and 1d4/bite. They won't be doing as much as a leopard with their bites, since it wasn't their main hunting weapon. Talons are mainly for rakes, as mentioned. (Technically a stab rather than a rake.) 15 Str, as Cleon suggested, is a good approximation, and Con should be greatly reduced too (they're birds after all).

Welcome aboard, Steinhauser! I agree with most of what you say. If I was homebrewing a realistic Deinonychus from scratch I'd make it around a leopard in power (although I might have to tone the leopard down first - big cats have been damage dealing mincing machines since they days of 1st edition, what with their claw/claw/bite/rake/rake routines. Five attacks a round sure adds up!).

That said, I was wanting to keep at least some of the rather exaggerated nature of the 3E Deinonychus, if only because a lot of people are likely to expect them to be pretty tough combatants having watched too many Jurassic Park rip-offs. So, I'm going to leave them 4 Hit Dice.

As for the talon-stabbing, I've already renamed "rake" to "talon-stab" in my conversion.

If you want the deinonychus to be able to tackle larger prey, my idea is to give them Improved Grab (claw) and, if they hit, the ability to substitute a Jump (or perhaps Climb) check for the first grapple check. However, the reality of their pack hunting is questionable, and as solo hunters, pounce (+rake) is preferable. Either way I like the idea of the claw being primary and the talons being a rake, since I can't imagine them lashing out with feet (like a kangaroo!?) without first trying to grab on.

I think just giving them a racial bonus on grapple for their grasping claws and talons is far easier. Besides, their high speed gives Maniraptors a jolly high Jump check.

After long deliberation I've switched their primary attack to bite. Mainly because making it their foreclaws gives them 2 primary attacks when full-attacking, which gives them two primary attack bonuses, which adds up to a lot of damage for a big Dromaeosaur.

I reduced all skill bonuses to +4 (from +8). But it's probably not that big a deal. I also reduced them to 1 Int, based on the size of their brains. Personally I don't think any dinosaur would have had 2 Int. But that's just me.

I've cut the skill bonuses to +4 as well, except I've added a couple more skills (e.g. Balance, Climb). I agree about the Int 2 being rather inappropriate but I'm not going to change it, mainly because it's the only way to differentiate between a "smart croc" level animal like Velociraptor and a "dumb lizard" like a sauropod. I'd have much preferred 3E animal intelligence to be more like AD&D, where the smarter ones (e.g. bears, gorillas) could have Intelligence 3-5. Trying to cram everything into either 1 or 2 doesn't leave much room for subtle gradiations!

Speed, I'll let you guys handle. My house rules still use 60 ft.

My current thinking is I'll just drop Run from the feats of the standard Medium to Large raptor. Then they'd have to sneak within charge distance of the Ornithomimus conversion (which has speed 60 and the Run feat) I've already done to have any chance of catching it. Any further and the Ostrich-mimic would take a Run action and outdistance it by 25% per round.

 

[Cleon]

main reason I said large was weight- usually estimated at around 1500 pounds.

Even for a 21 ft Utahraptor, it's chunky.

Utahraptor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfortunately it's only known from very scanty remains- so all weight estimates are pretty speculative. Maybe the similarly sized Achillobator will narrow down the weight estimates some.

Using 1500 lb and 21 ft long, and the ratio between 21 ft and 16 ft, I get a ballpark figure of about 660 lb for a 16 ft Utahraptor.

Not too shabby for a Large creature- basically big-tiger sized.

Well a lot of things about dinosaurs are speculative, that's why it's so much fun arguing about them.

Anyhow, I was just saying that under my current "generic maniraptor stats" a 16 foot length falls under the "Big dromeosaur" category. I wouldn't fuss too much over it since a particularly robust or gracile animal could easily shift up or down half a size category.

Besides, I'd already put Utahraptor in as the example of a "Large Maniraptor", and Achillobator in as the "Big Maniraptor", so all is right with the paleoworld.

 

[Cleon]

I think I'd better post the current "rough draft" of the Maniraptor Stats I'm working on, since it'll make it easier to see what I've been talking about.

I've tweaked the weights a fair bit to make the progression smoother (a Dromaeosaurus, for example, is actually a trifle smaller and lighter than the "stock Little Maniraptor" its name is attached to, but since I'm doing a set of generic stats it's inevitable some don't match precisely.

The stats for the smaller versions aren't quite presentable yet. So far I've got good candidate-names for the Diminutive (Epidexipteryx) and Tiny (Bambiraptor) Maniraptors, but I'm short a "Very Small" 'Raptor (~4 feet long, 15 inches tall, 6-8 pounds). Any suggestions for a species with that adult size?

 

[Cleon]

Rough Draft Maniraptors

Small Maniraptor (Velociraptor)
Late Cretaceous (75-70 MYA)
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1 [–3 without racial bonus]
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6) and 2 foreclaws +3 melee (1d3) and talons +3 melee (1d6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, talon-stab [+5 melee 1d8], pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +7, Hide +11* [+15 in undergrowth], Jump +19, Listen +8, Move Silently +7, Spot +8, Survival +6
Feats: Multiattack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Warm forests or plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: —

6 feet long, 2 feet tall, 20-30 pounds.


Little Maniraptor (Dromaeosaurus)
Late Cretaceous (75 MYA)
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+40 (76 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+3 [–1 without racial bonus]
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+1) and 2 foreclaws +5 melee (1d3) and talons +4 melee (1d6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, talon-stab [+6 melee 1d8+1], pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +7, Hide +11* [+15 in undergrowth], Jump +19, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +7
Feats: Multiattack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (foreclaw)
Environment: Warm forests or plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4 (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —

7-8 feet long, 3 feet tall, 50-60 pounds.


Medium Maniraptor (Deinonychus)
Early Cretaceous (115–110 MYA)
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+9 [+5 without racial bonus]
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d8+2)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d8+2) and 2 foreclaws +5 melee (1d4+1) and talons +4 melee (1d8+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, talon-stab [+6 melee 2d6+3], pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +7, Hide +8* [+12 in undergrowth], Jump +19, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +7
Feats: Multiattack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (foreclaw)
Environment: Warm forests or plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —

A Deinonychus is bright green along its back and flanks, with a much lighter shade of the same colour on its underside. The body has darker spots or stripes. Its tail extends straight out behind itself, held aloft by an intricate structure of bony supports, thus allowing its weight to be carried entirely by the back legs.

A Deinonychus has a total length of about 10-12 feet and stands some 4 feet tall, with a weight between 125 and 200 pounds.

Combat
A Deinonychus uses a combination of speed, grasping forearms, large teeth, and hind legs with ripping talons. It hunts by running at prey, leaping, and ripping with its rear talons as it claws and bites. The talons count as one attack. A Deinonychus has a relatively large brain for a dinosaur, and its pack hunts with cunning tactics.

Pounce (Ex): If a Deinonychus charges, it can make a full attack, including a Talon-Stab if its Improved Grab succeeds.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a Deinonychus must hit an opponent of any size with a bite or foreclaw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can Talon-Stab.

A Deinonychus has a +4 racial bonus to grapple checks.

Talon-Stab (Ex): When a Deinonychus makes a full attack against a foe it is grappling with, its talons attack at +6 melee for 2d6+3 damage.

Skills
A Deinonychus has a +8 racial bonus on Balance and a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival checks. A Deinonychus can use either its Strength or its Dexterity bonus on Climb checks.

*Its racial bonus to Hide increases to +8 in undergrowth.


Big Maniraptor (Achillobator)
Late Cretaceous (90 MYA)
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (45 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+12 [+8 without racial bonus]
Attack: Bite +8 melee (2d4+4)
Full Attack: Bite +8 melee (2d4+4) and 2 foreclaws +7 melee (1d4+2) and talons +6 melee (1d10+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, talon-stab [+8 melee 2d8+6], pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +12* [+16 in undergrowth], Jump +20, Listen +8, Move Silently +9, Spot +8, Survival +7
Feats: Multiattack, Skill Focus (Hide), Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (foreclaw)
Environment: Warm forests or plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7 HD (Medium); 8-9 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —

15-18 feet long, 6 feet tall, 300 to 500 pounds.


Large Maniraptor (Utahraptor)
Early Cretaceous (130-120 MYA)
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+32 (68 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+20 [+16 without racial bonus]
Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d6+6)
Full Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d6+6) and 2 foreclaws +10 melee (1d6+3) and talons +9 melee (2d6+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, talon-stab [+11 melee 3d6+9], pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +4
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +10, Hide +10* [+14 in undergrowth], Jump +22, Listen +8, Move Silently +10, Spot +8, Survival +7
Feats: Multiattack, Track (B), Skill Focus (Hide), Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (foreclaw)
Environment: Warm forests or plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9–15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —

20-24 feet long, 8 feet tall, 1000-1500 pounds.

 

[Steinhauser]

Welcome aboard, Steinhauser!

Thanks. : )

That said, I was wanting to keep at least some of the rather exaggerated nature of the 3E Deinonychus, if only because a lot of people are likely to expect them to be pretty tough combatants having watched too many Jurassic Park rip-offs. So, I'm going to leave them 4 Hit Dice.

I'll admit one of the bigger motivations for my change was to reduce them to 4th level animal companions. By the time I get to 7th level I'd be wanting a tiger or grizzly. (Or their prehistoric equivalents as they case may be.) If people wanted something more like JP raptors, I'd just advance them, or use a Utahraptor. I still think 3 HD and leopard-power attacks is the way to go - but, your call.

EDIT: Your Dromaeosaurus is pretty much a carbon copy of my houserules Deinonychus, except small size.

I think just giving them a racial bonus on grapple for their grasping claws and talons is far easier.

Yeah, you're probably right on that one - no need to overcomplicate things. A straight +4 bonus would probably suffice.

I agree about the Int 2 being rather inappropriate but I'm not going to change it, mainly because it's the only way to differentiate between a "smart croc" level animal like Velociraptor and a "dumb lizard" like a sauropod.

I suppose this rings true; more gradations would be better, of course. Predators should be more intelligent than their prey - it's just a shame it gets to share an Int score with chimps, canines, etc. 2 Int lets them learn 6 tricks, at least.

As for a 'very small' raptor, Buitreraptor was about 4 feet, as was Hesperonychus. What are these new sizes ("big," "very small")?

 

[Steinhauser]

Talon-Stab (Ex): When a Deinonychus makes a full attack against a foe it is grappling with, its talons attack at +6 melee for 2d6+3 damage.

This caught my attention. In order to complete its full attack action against a grappled (or any other) opponent, even with Improved Grab and Pounce, the Deinonychus would have to make its grapple check at -20 to hold the opponent while not being considered grappled itself. Otherwise, as soon as it grabs the opponent, it can only take actions normally allowed in a grapple, and only at the beginning of its NEXT turn. (An exception would be a talon-stab, if you consider it the same as a rake attack - it gets to make one for free as soon as it grapples).

If that's what you meant it to do, i would suggest changing the wording a bit:

Talon Stab (Ex):
Attack bonus +6 melee, damage 2d6+3. This attack works like a rake attack and deals piercing damage.

As it is now, I think it, and all the Maniraptors, are doing way too much damage. Velociraptor is doing 2d6+2d3+1d8 damage on a charge. In my opinion the talons should be exclusively talon-stab attacks, not part of their regular attack action unless they grapple or charge.

1d6 bite for a turkey-sized Velociraptor? 1d3 bite/1d2 claw/1d6 talon stab is more believeable. I have trouble picturing Deinonychus with more than 1d4 bite.

EDIT: Another thought. By default, Improved Grab only works on smaller opponents. If you want it to affect larger opponents too, you have to specify.

 

[Cleon]

Gah! I just noticed I've left a few errors in the attack line, so will need to edit them.

I've also decided to have Track and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats. Actually, I had them bonus feats in the first place, but changed them at the last minute because the Small Raptors ended up with quite a high attack bonus from its Weapon Finesse, but upon reflection I think I'll put them back in and just cut their Dex a little. I've given it Weapon Focus (foreclaw) instead of Track.

 

[Cleon]

Thanks. : )

I'll admit one of the bigger motivations for my change was to reduce them to 4th level animal companions. By the time I get to 7th level I'd be wanting a tiger or grizzly. (Or their prehistoric equivalents as they case may be.) If people wanted something more like JP raptors, I'd just advance them, or use a Utahraptor. I still think 3 HD and leopard-power attacks is the way to go - but, your call.

As I said earlier they are a exaggerated, but I wanted to keep them roughly in line with the SRD Deinonychus and Big Cats, which are more like their popular depictions as cinematic monsters than a realistic animal. I think the easiest way to solve the problem is say a 'realistic' maniraptor uses the stats of the next smaller variety.

Hmm, could say these are "Dire Raptors", I suppose, that might explain why they're so nasty. I'd need to give them a good Will save, though.

As for a 'very small' raptor, Buitreraptor was about 4 feet, as was Hesperonychus. What are these new sizes ("big," "very small")?

I thought about Buitreraptor but started to fear it was about as big as a Velociraptor, after coming across quotes of "turkey sized" and "10-15 kg" when I did a quick internet search to check its size. Having another look it does seem significantly smaller, so I'll stick it in.

As for the "new sizes", basically I'm doing stats for midway points between the official sizes, so a "Big" creature is a Medium-sized creature with half the Str and Con bonuses of a Large creature. It's just to add a bit more graduation into how large the animals are, so rather than having them double their length & Hit Dice each step they go up 50% or so.

The names I'm using are as follows, with the actual size and net strength adjustment in brackets:

Fine (Str -12)
Diminutive (Str -10)
Tiny (Str -8)
Very Small (Tiny, Str -6)
Small (Str -4)
Little (Small, Str -2)
Medium (Str +0)
Big (Medium, Str +4)
Large (Str +8)
Very Large (Large, Str +12)
Huge (Str +16)
Enormous (Huge, Str +20)
Gargantuan (Str +24)
Titanic (Gargantuan, Str +28)
Colossal (Str +32)
Colossal+ (Colossal, Str +36)
Epic (Colossal, Str +40)