Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[S'mon]

Re: Re: ECL calculation agreements

Hello again mate!

Good point...

...True - so having them equal seems right. Pros and cons for both.

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: ECL ability scores and giants

The latter two are harder to acquire than flying, true, but remember that flying for most characters is a resource that other characters have to supply somehow. It's only at pretty high levels that it becomes a trivial factor in a group.

Yes, but its not like the ability to fly is going to unbalance every encounter, far from it. So really its only going to be of prime importance now and again, when one character is almost certainly going to have access to that capability (even at low levels).

I'm not convinced. I think for a lot of creatures, especially ones with STR and CON exceeding that gained from size, they have to be considered - because a lot of threat from many of those creatures comes purely from those two stats (and size, which is already figured).

You say
"All of which is quantified by the system."

But it can't be, because you could have (for the sake of argement) two creatures which are identical, except one does more damage and hits more often because it has higher STR & CON. (The large giants might well qualify here.)

It's the giant humanoids (including attachs, ettins, titans, etc) I have in mind (and to a lesser extend a number of non-humanoid mosters, such as dragons), as some of these creatures do have STR and CON scores greatly in excess of that granted by size.
(In fact, I suspect that an earlier draft had the frost and fire giants as Huge, and Storm and Cloud as Colossal - this is the size they have in the PH, and their stats fit these sizes better).

Anyway, as I originally said (despite the effot invested in writing the above), I lean towards having stats calculated in CR, rather than I'm certain they should be.
Maybe another approach would be to have some kind of guide as to what stats certain CRs should have, and if they have more than this a CR cost is assigned.
But this would be very tricky given the different types of creatures (and also the fact that I don't think WotC get it right either - I feel, for example, most higher CR creatures that rely on spell-like abilities have mental stats which are too weak: there's a real separation between the effectiveness of supernatural and spell-like abilities).

(Ramble over, and the post count increases )

I think discrepancies for super stats are outlined in the Design Parameters. Anything beyond whats 'natural' for a monster (dependant on Hit Dice) should be factored as with Templates and Size.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: ECL calculation

Hiya mate! (U_K natch)

I just noticed you are from the UK - why weren't you at Gencon mate? Todays ENWorld game (and subsequent fratrenising) was great.

I couldn't get away - family stuff. It is Easter.
(I live in County Durham, which is about as far away from GenCon as you can be and still be in England.)

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: ECL calculation and Ogres (no I'm not finished yet )

As mentioned in my previous post, I think ECL6 might not be enough.
I did have an ECL 6 Ogre in my group (standard point buy, standard equipment), and he was outperforming the pure fighters. He did have slighly lower hit points, but that didn't make up for the dramatic increase in damage he inflicted (especially since, with his natural armour, his AC was better).
His will save, was no worse than the other fighters really, his reflex only slightly worse than the fighters. His INT obviously wa slower, but that was a roleplaying bonus!
The problem here, though, isn't stat points in general - it's the massive benefit that STR gives. I personally think it should probably be valued higher - perhaps twice as high - as the other stats (and this should be accounted for in the cost of size, too).

Obviously hes going to do a lot of damage, but I still think overall ECL 5 is accurate.

Well, magic items are supposed to resize to their wielder - it says nothing about being within a particular size group. You take something off a halfling, or a dragon, and you can use it. It's only mundane items they need to worry about.

That sounds nonsensical. An item may adapt slightly to creatures of the same size but certainly not over different size categories. With technical exceptions like rings which could theoretically be used on an ogres little pinky or as an earring for a dragon etc.

<just one more to go...>

Crothians probably starting to look over his shoulder.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: ECL ability scores and giants

Yes, but its not like the ability to fly is going to unbalance every encounter, far from it. So really its only going to be of prime importance now and again, when one character is almost certainly going to have access to that capability (even at low levels).

I don't know. A lot of creatures, all through the MM CR's, have no ability to deal with flying creatures. (Even a surprising number of Epic creature.)
Once a player gets this, it can be a massive advantage in a wide range of encounters, and if it's a natural ability it can be used in a lot of out-of-combat situations, to bypass hurdles etc.
It's not so much of a problem at high levels (since everyone who wants it can have it), but over levels 1-9 is very useful.

I think discrepancies for super stats are outlined in the Design Parameters. Anything beyond whats 'natural' for a monster (dependant on Hit Dice) should be factored as with Templates and Size.

I was just about to ask whether points should be awarded for giving creatures the standard array, etc., but you anticipated me

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

The methodology he uses obviously can't work with your system, but I think budding creature designers should bear his points in mind. Once they have worked out a creatures CR, they should then use a method similar to his to see if the final creature is actually reasonable.

I am beginning to suspect that a number of your creatures CRs are inflated because they have a wide array of spell like abilities, but will only get to use a few of them (I'm thinking of Demons and Devils particularly, because I have a lot of experience of using them - some of which have CR's in the MM which are higher than they should be in the MM, too (can anyone say Vrock)).

In this case, the CR's might well be a good representation of ECL (where the full value of all those abilities should be assessed).
I think having a huge range of spell-like abilities is of little value to a monster, if it's only around long enough to use 3 of them.
(And the hit points and fighting ability of most demons ensure sthis will be the case - their high AC & SR is the only thing that makes them last as long as they do - which isn't long at the levels they are often encountered.)
Creatures should pay something for the extra flexibility, yes, but if they have as many abilities as the fiends, I don't think they should pay full value for all those abilities. (As monsters - as PCs they should.)

Challenge Rating is all about potential. The question is "what is this monsters potential for challenging the party". Rather than which abilities will it get to use before a certain party does this or that.

So all its abilities are pertinent, regardless of how small.

The beauty of this system is that Encounter Levels are properly related to Challenge Rating. So that it automatically reduces the impact of (relatively) minor abilities the higher in power (CR) you ascend.

Don't worry, I'm sure I'll find something else to moan about

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: ECL calculation and Ogres (no I'm not finished yet )

Obviously hes going to do a lot of damage, but I still think overall ECL 5 is accurate.

Well, I don't.

That sounds nonsensical. An item may adapt slightly to creatures of the same size but certainly not over different size categories. With technical exceptions like rings which could theoretically be used on an ogres little pinky or as an earring for a dragon etc.

I agree that it is nonsensical. It is, however, the rules. The DMG specifically says that magic items (of the armour, clothing, or jewellery sort) resize to fit their wielder, and that halflings can wear armour made for humans (and vice-versa by extrapolation).
It also states that size shouldn't be an issue most of the time. If halfling sized gear can fit humans, then human sized gear should fit ogres (after magically resizing).

Crothians probably starting to look over his shoulder.

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: Re: ECL ability scores and giants

Howdy Anubis mate! (Its me, honest)

The problem with actually factoring in ability scores comes at Levels 1-3, as I have shown and proven time and again. Under no circumstance is a Level 1 party going to be PEL 9 (each PC CR 4) no matter how high those ability scores are. As it stands, WITHOUT factoring in the ability scores, those really strong creatures like giants come out accurate. Trust me on that, I've used them.

Technically it only really gives the illusion of over inflating the CRs/ELs at low levels because of the fragility of the characters at that level.

That's why UK said those factors aren't necessary. By the time they COUNT, the increase in PC CR/PEL balances it out, and the differences are negligible.

Indeed. Testing showed we could 'get away without them'...provided we had a design parameter for ability scores.

The only time there is a problem is with super over-inflted scores, like if you gave a kobold Str 30 and Con 30. With the more powerful creatures, size and HD can explain away the ability scores.

...if not, refer to the design parameters section.

Um, an ogre by itself with no levels is CR 4, making it an EL 9. Where did you get this EL 6 stuff?

I think he means ECL mate.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: ECL calculation and Demons

Challenge Rating is all about potential. The question is "what is this monsters potential for challenging the party". Rather than which abilities will it get to use before a certain party does this or that.

But a creature's potential threat can't be separated from is how many of its abilities it is likely to be able to use in the encounter.
It should get some benefit form having a wide range of abilities, because that means it is flexible and able to handle different situations, but there should IMO be a diminishing returns benefit for large numbers of abilities.

The beauty of this system is that Encounter Levels are properly related to Challenge Rating. So that it automatically reduces the impact of (relatively) minor abilities the higher in power (CR) you ascend.

I agree that the lesser abilities, by virtue of having a lower spell level (and also needing greater and greater points to bump up the CR) does handle this to an extent.
But I look at those demons and devils CRs and can't help feeling, based on my experience playtesting them (a lot), that they are overrated.
It's possible I haven't been playing them to their potential, but I don't think that's the case.

Darren

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL ability scores and giants

I think he means ECL mate.

And in fact, it's what I said