Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

WARNING! ERROR! (I'd like to add a bilnking style to that )

The Savage Species table is in error (the same applies to the Fiend Folio table as far as I heard).
Outsiders get (8 + Int) * (HD + 3) Skill points.
Undead get (4 + Int) * (HD + 3) Skill points.
Fey and Dragons get (6 + Int) * (HD + 3) Skill points.
The rest gets (2 + Int) * (HD + 3) Skill points.

This is interesting. I was concerned that Outsiders in particular seemed hurt by the savage species table. Do you have a source for this?

Darren

 

[Knight Otu]

If you check every other table in SavSpe, you will see that outsiders always get the 8 skill points, and that undead always get the 4 skill points.

In most cases, when you reverse engineer the stats from the Fiend Folio, you should come to that conclusion (not that you have to do that...).

Finally, on the SavSpe boards, Rich Redman said that it was an error.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

back to the CR system

I mentioned I'd probably find something else to moan about.
I have two concerns - here's the first.

One thing that I'm undecided about is how well (or not) the doubling factor in the CR system works, especially at the higher levels.

A Greater Barghest (CR11, EL14) is a hard (+4) challenge for a 5th level group (EL10).

By extension, 4 Greater Barghests (EL18) then should be a hard challenge for an 11th level group.

At this level, I can't say with any certainty if it's right or wrong, but it looks roughly in the right ballpark. It's also close to the official fiures (which would be EL5 and EL9 respectively)

However, going back to that Pit Fiend (and I'm assuming for this argument that the Pit Fiend CR is correct - whether it is or not is irrelevant for this discussion).
The Pit Fiend (CR27) is a hard challenge for 12th-13th level group. This seems reasonable (and even fits the official figures).

So, 4 Pit Fiends would be similarly hard challenge for a 24th-27th level group.
It seems very unlikely to me that any creature capable of a 50-50 battle with a team of 12th level pcs would provide a similar level of danger to a 24th level group, just by bumping the numbers up to 4.


It may be that epic and godlike monsters, as they increase in power from, say, CR 30-50+ do scale in a way that this relationship works - I can't say because I haven't seen them.
But over the range of CR10-30, it doesn't look likely to me.

Any thoughts?

Darren

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

If you check every other table in SavSpe, you will see that outsiders always get the 8 skill points, and that undead always get the 4 skill points.

In most cases, when you reverse engineer the stats from the Fiend Folio, you should come to that conclusion (not that you have to do that...).

Finally, on the SavSpe boards, Rich Redman said that it was an error.

Thanks. Those points are good enough for me.

Darren

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: back to the CR system

Firstly thanks to Knight Otu for keeping us all up to date.

Hiya demiurge mate!

I mentioned I'd probably find something else to moan about.
I have two concerns - here's the first.

One thing that I'm undecided about is how well (or not) the doubling factor in the CR system works, especially at the higher levels.

A Greater Barghest (CR11, EL14) is a hard (+4) challenge for a 5th level group (EL10).

By extension, 4 Greater Barghests (EL18) then should be a hard challenge for an 11th level group.

At this level, I can't say with any certainty if it's right or wrong, but it looks roughly in the right ballpark. It's also close to the official fiures (which would be EL5 and EL9 respectively)

However, going back to that Pit Fiend (and I'm assuming for this argument that the Pit Fiend CR is correct - whether it is or not is irrelevant for this discussion).
The Pit Fiend (CR27) is a hard challenge for 12th-13th level group. This seems reasonable (and even fits the official figures).

So, 4 Pit Fiends would be similarly hard challenge for a 24th-27th level group.
It seems very unlikely to me that any creature capable of a 50-50 battle with a team of 12th level pcs would provide a similar level of danger to a 24th level group, just by bumping the numbers up to 4.

It may be that epic and godlike monsters, as they increase in power from, say, CR 30-50+ do scale in a way that this relationship works - I can't say because I haven't seen them.
But over the range of CR10-30, it doesn't look likely to me.

Any thoughts?

Monsters who gain more to their CR from Special Abilities/Qualities than from Hit Dice are inherantly more fragile. This is the price they pay for versatility.

As we know, fragility can play tricks on the Challenge Rating.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: back to the CR system

Firstly thanks to Knight Otu for keeping us all up to date.

Hiya demiurge mate!



Monsters who gain more to their CR from Special Abilities/Qualities than from Hit Dice are inherantly more fragile. This is the price they pay for versatility.

As we know, fragility can play tricks on the Challenge Rating.

I was assuming the CRs were correctly balanced and taking such things into account.
I think the problem would be much the same if I'd used, say, Giants (and even Dragons).

Darren

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: back to the CR system

Hiya mate!

I was assuming the CRs were correctly balanced and taking such things into account.
I think the problem would be much the same if I'd used, say, Giants (and even Dragons).

Well its easy to test:

Try 4 10th-level characters against a 20th-level character.

Try 4 15th-level characters against a 30th-level character.

Try 4 20th-level characters against a 40th-level character.

For simplicity sake you can use Fighters.

Devastating Critical

Incidently for Devastating Critical I have been thinking that the DC should perhaps not encompass +1/2 Level (or my change to 1/2 BAB).

I mean a 30th-level Fighter will probably have around 30 strength and critical hit probably 1 in 4 (likely at least once per round) so you already have a DC 35, meaning that anything weaker than yourself (in terms of Level/HD) is probably going to die with a single critical hit (likely within one round).

I mean compared to a Dread weapon special ability which is specifically targeted at only one creature type and has a +7 bonus (not even counting an enchantment modifier) meaning you shouldn't even have one until a minimum of 29th-level.

Whereas Devastating Critical can be gained at 22nd-level. A PC fighter would almost certainly have a 28 or better strength meaning a DC of 30+ against every creature type*. Whilst the Dread weapon 'officially' has a DC of 27 against a single creature type. Obviously the Devastating Critical is therefore broken.

*Excepting those immune to Crits which admittedly the Dread weapon affects (at no extra cost) provided it is the chosen creature type.

From now on I advocate Devastating Critical is calculated as follows:

DC = 10 + Str Bonus.

Any comments?

 

[Anubis]

Wealth

I thought I should point out, UK, that your system for determining wealth sucks and is WAY off what can be considered balanced in any way.

First off, you have an exponential increase in wealth. This makes wealth difficult to manage in any way at higher levels.

My main problem, however, comes with your numbers with NPC wealth. You see, the problem lies in specific levels. At the lowest and the highest levels, you give NPCs hardly any wealth whatsoever. This problem persists at middle levels, but isn't nearly as bad. A Level 2 NPC gets gets a paltry 100 gp, which is less than most of them get at Level 1! At Level 3, the NPCs get a mere 337 gp. At Level 4, this increases to 800 gp. I'm sorry, but these amounts of wealth aren't worth ANYTHING to CR/EL. Nothing WHATSOEVER. 100? 337? This won't buy much of anything! A normal weapon and a normal cheap suit of armor and shield and your basics, and nothing more. Level 1 characters have this amount of wealth. Yet the NPCs pay a (relatively) heavy cost in CR/EL for these amounts. Just the same, let's take a Level 50 character. PC wealth is 12,500,000 gp. NPC wealth is 1,562,500 gp. Twelve times the wealth at Level 50? Wait a sec, isn't PC wealth only worth DOUBLE NPC wealth when putting it on CR/EL? See the problem? Your numbers do not compute.

The only conceivable solution I can think is to determine NPC wealth by giving them exactly half what a PC of the same level would get. That means at Level 2, an NPC will get 400 rather than 100. At Level 3, it's 1350 rather than 337. At Level 4, it's 3200 rather than 800. This also makes the CR/EL numbers correct by giving PC wealth a value exactly double the value of NPC wealth. I believe I have offered sufficient proof to prove my case.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Wealth

Hey Anubis mate!

I thought I should point out, UK, that your system for determining wealth sucks and is WAY off what can be considered balanced in any way.

Is that so...

First off, you have an exponential increase in wealth. This makes wealth difficult to manage in any way at higher levels.

In what way?

My main problem, however, comes with your numbers with NPC wealth. You see, the problem lies in specific levels. At the lowest and the highest levels, you give NPCs hardly any wealth whatsoever. This problem persists at middle levels, but isn't nearly as bad. A Level 2 NPC gets gets a paltry 100 gp, which is less than most of them get at Level 1! At Level 3, the NPCs get a mere 337 gp. At Level 4, this increases to 800 gp. I'm sorry, but these amounts of wealth aren't worth ANYTHING to CR/EL. Nothing WHATSOEVER. 100? 337?

+0.1, +0.2, hardly a massive increase.

This won't buy much of anything! A normal weapon and a normal cheap suit of armor and shield and your basics, and nothing more. Level 1 characters have this amount of wealth. Yet the NPCs pay a (relatively) heavy cost in CR/EL for these amounts. Just the same, let's take a Level 50 character. PC wealth is 12,500,000 gp. NPC wealth is 1,562,500 gp. Twelve times the wealth at Level 50? Wait a sec, isn't PC wealth only worth DOUBLE NPC wealth when putting it on CR/EL? See the problem? Your numbers do not compute.

The only conceivable solution I can think is to determine NPC wealth by giving them exactly half what a PC of the same level would get. That means at Level 2, an NPC will get 400 rather than 100. At Level 3, it's 1350 rather than 337. At Level 4, it's 3200 rather than 800. This also makes the CR/EL numbers correct by giving PC wealth a value exactly double the value of NPC wealth. I believe I have offered sufficient proof to prove my case.

Well you have raised some good points. However, the problem is you don't want to give NPCs half the wealth of the PCs, otherwise they simply have to 'roll over' a couple of NPCs and they have doubled through on their wealth!

 

[seasong]

So, I was playing with classes and CRs again, and I realized what was bothering me.

Upper_Krust averages the CR bonus of all levels for expedient math. At 20th level, the Fighter (with no racial bonuses) is CR 20.26, spot on. But at first level, he's CR 2.455.

0.3 - d10 HD*
0.15 - BAB +1
0.125 - Fort +2
0.2 - base character feat
0.2 - bonus fighter feat
0.08 - 8 skill points
0.8 - all armors and shields
0.4 - all simple and martial weapons**
0.2 - level 1 wealth

* this does not account for the max 1st HD rule.
** technically, a single weapon is a feat, but in practice, "all simple weapons" is no better than "one good simple weapon".

Anyway, for simplicity sake, it's not generally worth worrying about - at the low levels, a little extra survivability's not a bad thing, and it all washes out at the higher levels. But it was what was bugging me .