Revised Counterspelling

[Sylrae]

I've always thought counterspelling should be a standard mechanic in D&D, and thought it should be easier to accomplish. The existing counterspell mechanics are something I've never seen anyone use, because you have to ready an action in advance, and even if you DO ready an action, there is such a small chance that you're going to have the exact spell needed to counter the opponent anyways.

So, this transforms counterspell into a sort of check. There are different modifiers based on what spell slot you burn and some other factors. New modifiers for different situations would also be useful.

There are also some Counterspell related feats in the document. If anyone has suggestions on balancing those, or has some additional ideas for feats to go with this, I'd like to hear them.

Let me know what you guys think.

Document attached.

~Random Aside: I was out of town, visiting family over the holidays, and when I came back my landlord had cancelled the internet to switch to a new provider, and hasn't set it up yet. So I had no internet over the holidays, and now I only have internet when I'm at the university. So I don't get to check these boards as frequently as I usually do, and I have little time to reply.

 

[Kerrick]

That's pretty similar to the [ur=http://project-phoenix.wikidot.com/magicverview]system I use[/url], except that your bonuses are larger. Looking at mine, I should probably tweak the modifiers a bit. Looks good, though.

Countermage isn't bad (though I had to read it twice to figure out what it was doing); I'd add some Spellcraft ranks to the prereqs, though.

 

[Sylrae]

That's pretty similar to the system I use, except that your bonuses are larger. Looking at mine, I should probably tweak the modifiers a bit. Looks good, though.

Countermage isn't bad (though I had to read it twice to figure out what it was doing); I'd add some Spellcraft ranks to the prereqs, though.

Spellcraft could be a good idea to add for the prereqs.

I think the similarity comes from both being based on a conversation we had a while back. Yours is based on the things you said, and mine is based on the things I said.

Noting some differences:
Identifying a spell: You used the default mechanic, I added in the ability to identify school and level at lower DCs.

Your rules are the default Rules. You present a table of CL Mods, but don't specify how the check works. (I think that's an error).

Now for the modifiers:

1. You give a penalty for different school, I give a bonus for opposed school.

2. You have an Arcane vs. Divine modifier, and I didn't think to add that.

3. Your system has casting the 'same' spell assumed as the default, and I see that as an unusual bonus situation.

4. Overall Smaller Mods.

5. You gave a Larger bonus for spell level burned. Should spell level just be spell level, or should it be multiplied by 2 like in yours? What are the reasons for the doubling?

What is the DC for your counterspell check? Are you working on a smaller scale than I am? (15 + Opponent's Caster Level + Opponent's Spell Level)
A Regular Caster level check would just be 10+Opponent's Caster Level, right? (Don't have books in front of me).

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Looks nice. Just a few observations:

I like Countermage a lot, but it seems too powerful to me. Perhaps at a minimum make the prereqs a little tougher (Kerrick's recommendation to add some Spellcraft ranks seems a good idea).

The counterspell modifiers are a little unclear to me in that I'm not sure which ones override which other ones. For example, I imagine that mods for "same spell +4" and "same school +1" don't stack? Also, if a wiz attempts a counterspell with say only info on the school, does he get the +4 if he just happens to use the same spell by accident?

It might help to clarify things if the table is rearranged by category rather than by number of plusses:
[sblock]
COUNTERSPELLING MODIFIERS

Spell used to counterspell is... (only one applies)
Opposed Spell: +6
Opposed Effect: +4
Opposed School: +3

Same Spell: +4
Same School: +1

Dispel Magic: +3

Counterspeller's knowledge of spell

Exact Spell is Identified: +3
[/sblock]

(This is just my interpretation of the table. If I'm mistaken, apologies!)

 

[ValhallaGH]

The base DC seems a bit high, especially since you don't mention and houserules to the actual caster level check.

Lets look at two level 10 casters, one of whom is using his highest level spell (5th level) and the other is countering.
DC: 15 + 10 (CL) + 5 (SL) = DC 30
So, before modifiers, our equal level caster needs to make a DC 30 caster-level check (natural 20 required).
Now, to acquire those modifiers:

• First, he makes a Spellcraft Check: DC 15/18/20. DC 15 (trivial at level 10) allows counterspell, DC 20 (easy, even for a non-specialist) grants a +3.
• Now, he selects a spell to counter with. Let's assume that the exact spell is unavailable, but he does have a spell from the same school ready to sacrifice (+1).
• Now, we check for other bonuses. Unfortunately for our example, this character is not a counter spell specialist and has no further bonuses.

So, now our equal level caster needs to roll a DC 30 caster level check, and has a +14 bonus. This requires a natural 16 (25% success rate). So, counterspell mage probably just wasted his ready action.
New example, replacing Chump-o the Deceased with Cancel-o the Counter Mage:

• Cancel-o has Skill Focus (Spellcraft) and an 18 Intelligence; he identifies 5th level spells 90% of the time. +3
• Cancel-o always has opposite spells prepared, as well as Dispell Magic (greater and lesser). +6
• Cancel-o is an Improved, Reactive Countermage. +4 and minimal action cost.

Cancel-o, the counterspell mage, has a total +23 to his counterspell check. He still has to hit a DC 30, but he can do it on a natural 7 (70%).
If there was no opposite spell, Cancel-o would default to either Dispel or the same spell, leaving him with a +20/+21, and needing a 10/9 (55%/60%).

So, our generic mage dabbling in counter spelling is very likely to fail. Our counter spell specialist is likely to succeed, but his odds are poor enough against an equal opponent that he'll probably realize that he's wasted his life and give up the adventuring shtick when this is all over.

If you drop the base DC to 10 + Caster Level + Spell Level then you get something much more appealing. Our dabbler has a solid 50% success rate, and our specialist is on a 95% (best possible), 85% (same spell), 80% (Dispel Magic), which is where a specialist counter-mage should be.


Side note: There is mention of using a higher spell level mattering, but no description of how they matter is included.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Side note: There is mention of using a higher spell level mattering, but no description of how they matter is included.

I believe it's buried in the text above the table of modifiers. It's not a straight CL check, but rather a CL+slotLevel check:

' ' To complete the action and make your counterspell, decide which spell you will consume for the counterspell. The spell chosen will, be used, as though you had cast it. Arcane Spell Failure applies as though casting the spell chosen. Then, make a caster level check, and add the level of the spell slot you are using. The DC is 15 + the opponent’s caster level, + the level of the spell to be countered. Additional modifiers are added/subtracted from your check as follows.
​

(emphasis mine)

The slot level is actually a modifier to the CL check. Maybe that should go on the Table of Modifiers so it's clearer?

 

[Sylrae]

Yea. it was in the paragraph describing the check instead of the table. I'll clarify, and then maybe another examination may prove it better.

I'll adjust the document and reupload it.

The way that spell levels make a difference, is that, with a +5 for dropping a level 5 spell, if you're countering a level 3 spell, you've gotten a +2 more than the DC was raised.

I'll adjust the document, then I'll try running the numbers in the same situations you thought of.

 

[Kerrick]

I think the similarity comes from both being based on a conversation we had a while back. Yours is based on the things you said, and mine is based on the things I said.

Aha.

Identifying a spell: You used the default mechanic, I added in the ability to identify school and level at lower DCs.

Your rules are the default Rules. You present a table of CL Mods, but don't specify how the check works. (I think that's an error).

Umm... oops? *sigh* Yeah. It's supposed to be an opposed CL check.

1. You give a penalty for different school, I give a bonus for opposed school.

No such thing as an "opposed school" - that went out with 2E, unless you houseruled it back in.

2. You have an Arcane vs. Divine modifier, and I didn't think to add that.

That was someone else's idea. I don't recall if it came from our discussion or something I saw somewhere else.

3. Your system has casting the 'same' spell assumed as the default, and I see that as an unusual bonus situation.

Hmm. Looking over my table, it's missing a few things (like "same school", which would be +2) and it needs some adjustments. But let's say, for the sake of argument, I have it (because I will shortly). I was going to do +3/+6/+9 for dispel/greater dispel/disjunction, then I think I dropped it in favor of the level difference mechanic (and disjunction always works). Dispel and greater dispel are especially suited for this, and should grant bonuses; I'd probably go with +2/+4.

Bob is casting fireball. Frank wants to counterspell him. If he chooses fireball, he gets a +4 bonus (that makes sense; I'm not sure why I did it the way I did). If he chooses any other Evocation spell of the same level (like lightning bolt), he gets a +2 bonus. If he chooses an Evocation spell of a higher level, he gets the +2 bonus AND a further +2 for each level higher (conversely, a lower-level spell like magic missile suffers a -2/level difference).

I wrote out a simulated counterspell situation with Bob and Frank. Frank had a really good chance of success when using the same spell or same spell/same school, but his chances dropped dramatically for anything else (even optimized), so I'm going to go over everything again.

4. Overall Smaller Mods.

Didn't really see the need for huge mods, since basic mechanics use +/-2 for most things. Don't forget, though, that if you use larger mods, it results in larger penalties for the "wrong" spells - this essentially forces players to choose the best spell for the job, instead of smaller modifiers, which give them a chance with any old spell they have (because sometimes, that's all you've got).

5. You gave a Larger bonus for spell level burned. Should spell level just be spell level, or should it be multiplied by 2 like in yours? What are the reasons for the doubling?

Like I said, I just went with the +/-2 mechanic. If you're willing to burn a higher-level spell (remember, your highest level spells are always the most useful), you deserve a greater bonus. Course, this also means that lower-level spells are more useless for such a thing... I dunno. See the example below.

What is the DC for your counterspell check? Are you working on a smaller scale than I am? (15 + Opponent's Caster Level + Opponent's Spell Level)

A Regular Caster level check would just be 10+Opponent's Caster Level, right? (Don't have books in front of me).

It's 1d20+CL vs. DC 11 + CL (d20srd.org is very handy for times like this ).


Random comment about Countermage: I would set the Spellcraft prereq to 8 ranks (assumes a L5 caster). Also, I'm assuming "You have 1/3 of your total spell slots of each level (minimum 1 per spell level you can cast)" means "total spell slots of each spell level" not "total spell slots of each caster level" By which I mean that a L5 wizard (4/3/2/1) has +2 total, not +3. It's a not a huge difference, even at L20 (+9 vs. +12), but it does bear clearing up.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I believe it's buried in the text above the table of modifiers. It's not a straight CL check, but rather a CL+slotLevel check:

Oh! Well, that does change the math a good bit. I wonder how I overlooked that, since I was specifically looking for something just like that. Ah well, it happens.

So, if both characters used a 5th level spell to counter, their odds change to about the same as a base DC 10. That's not nearly as bad as I was thinking and does a nice job of emphasizing the relative power of spell levels without totally hosing someone using a lower level spell.

 

[Sylrae]

The document has been updated and hopefully is now more clear/a bit better.

Looks nice. Just a few observations:

I like Countermage a lot, but it seems too powerful to me. Perhaps at a minimum make the prereqs a little tougher (Kerrick's recommendation to add some Spellcraft ranks seems a good idea).

Yea, it is a bit too powerful. I just wasn't sure how I should scale it back.

The counterspell modifiers are a little unclear to me in that I'm not sure which ones override which other ones... It might help to clarify things if the table is rearranged by category rather than by number of plusses

Done. That should be clear in the new document.It works basically how you saw the table.

Also, if a wiz attempts a counterspell with say only info on the school, does he get the +4 if he just happens to use the same spell by accident?

If this happens, it still gives the +4 for same spell, but not the +3 for identified spell.

Your interpretation of the table was correct, I should have been more clear. It should be fixed now.

The base DC seems a bit high, especially since you don't mention any houserules to the actual caster level check.

Sorry you missed that, you're adding the spell slot level to your check.

I'm going to go over your example again, and correct the numbers.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Lets look at two level 10 casters, one of whom is using his highest level spell (5th level) and the other is countering, using a 5th level spell slot.
DC: 15 + 10 (CL) + 5 (SL) = DC 30
So, before modifiers, our equal level caster needs to make a DC 30 caster-level check (natural 15+ required).
Now, to acquire those modifiers:

• First, he makes a Spellcraft Check: DC 15/18/20. DC 15 (trivial at level 10) allows counterspell, DC 20 (easy, even for a non-specialist) grants a +3. Maybe the Identify check should be a bit higher...
  
• Now, he selects a spell to counter with. Let's assume that the exact spell is unavailable, but he does have a spell from the same school ready to sacrifice (+1).
• Now, we check for other bonuses. Unfortunately for our example, this character is not a counter spell specialist and has no further bonuses.

So, now our equal level caster needs to roll a DC 30 caster level check, and has a +19 bonus. This requires a natural 11 (50% success rate). So, counterspell mage may have wasted his action.

New example, replacing Chump-o the Deceased with Cancel-o the Counter Mage:

• Cancel-o has Skill Focus (Spellcraft) and an 18 Intelligence; he identifies 5th level spells 90% of the time. +3
• Cancel-o always has opposite spells prepared, as well as Dispell Magic (greater and lesser). +6
• Cancel-o is an Improved, Reactive Countermage. +4 and minimal action cost.

Cancel-o, the counterspell mage, has a total +28 to his counterspell check. He still has to hit a DC 30, but he can do it on a natural 2 (90%).
If there was no opposite spell, Cancel-o would default to either Dispel or the same spell, leaving him with a +25/+26, and needing a 5/4 (75%/80%).

So, our generic mage dabbling in counter spelling Has equal chances of failure and success. Our counter spell specialist is Almost Guaranteed to succeed, but his odds are poor enough against an equal opponent that he'll probably realize that he's wasted his life and give up the adventuring shtick when this is all over.

If you drop the base DC to 10 + Caster Level + Spell Level then you get something much more appealing. Our dabbler has a solid 50% success rate, and our specialist is on a 95% (best possible), 85% (same spell), 80% (Dispel Magic), which is where a specialist counter-mage should be.

These numbers are close to the ones already existing.

Side note: There is mention of using a higher spell level mattering, but no description of how they matter is included.

Yeah. it was in paragraph text. Sorry you missed that.

@Kerrick: Yeah, I meant spell level instead of caster level for that feat.

I may pull the opposed school. I was thinking different elements for evocation.

What do you guys think of adding caster stat mod to the check?
Raising the DC somehow for the Identify? Hmm. As you mentioned, it does seem a little easy to Identify things.

I don't know.

I was also considering making the readied action mechanic optional, in favor of a weird custom action:
You use it like an AoO, but in return you lose a standard action on your next turn. That way you don't waste turns waiting for a spell and having it never happen. Just a thought.

What do you guys think of this?