Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Allow me to clrify my position.

For monster races, I do not think ability scores should apply to CR OR ECL. (Size is different because it has more than one specific impact.)

FOr TEMPLATES, however, the ability scores SHOULD be counted, and the reasoning is because a template is never a race in and of itself. You can't just have a flat "Vampire" or "Ghost". They have to go on top of OTHER races, and therefore adds MORE to an existing race.

Anyway, that's what I have to say on that.

Races are Templates in all but name.

 

[kreynolds]

Did you ever penalise a player for rolling up good ability scores before!? I doubt it, and I don't think its something you should instigate now.

I don't either, which is why I switched to point buy a long time ago. Quite frankly, I've seen too many characters die a very unheroic death short into the game because they rolled crappy stats, and D&D is a game of heroes.

 

[Anubis]

Hiya mate!



Races are Templates in all but name.

I disagree, and I think most would agree with me here.

Races are a BASE creature, Templates are an ADDITION. Templates are more like Classes than Races, to be honest. As such, everything in a Template is counted.

To show a better example, imagine a Template that does NOTHING but add +10 to every stat. Let's call this the "Krustacion" for humor purposes. Now a goblin is a goblin, but a Krustacion goblin is far more powerful, even though the Template grants ONLY stat bonuses; if the goblin simply had 14 Strength instead, that is within the standard rolling procedures and could be achieved through luck (and was) whereas the +10 from the Template applies NO MATTER WHAT IS ROLLED, and is ALWAYS an addition.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis matey!

I disagree, and I think most would agree with me here.

Appeal to authority.

Races are a BASE creature, Templates are an ADDITION.

Both add set fixed bonuses.

To show a better example, imagine a Template that does NOTHING but add +10 to every stat. Let's call this the "Krustacion" for humor purposes. Now a goblin is a goblin, but a Krustacion goblin is far more powerful, even though the Template grants ONLY stat bonuses; if the goblin simply had 14 Strength instead, that is within the standard rolling procedures and could be achieved through luck (and was) whereas the +10 from the Template applies NO MATTER WHAT IS ROLLED, and is ALWAYS an addition.

You don't roll racial traits either so I fail to see the logic of the above argument!?

The Krustacion Template would add +6 CR.

The Goblin Racial Traits would add +x CR.

 

[Anubis]

Hi Anubis matey!



Appeal to authority.



Both add set fixed bonuses.



You don't roll racial traits either so I fail to see the logic of the above argument!?

The Krustacion Template would add +6 CR.

The Goblin Racial Traits would add +x CR.

Think OUTSIDE the PC/NPC lines. Think OUTSIDE the bun. Think OUTSIDE the box.

Or rather think inside.

You see, you CAN'T, no matter what you do, have "just a Krustacion" or "just a Vampire" or "just a Paragon". In the same way, you can't have "just a fighter", "just a wizard", or "just a psion". These are ALWAYS tied to the base creature LATER. You CAN, however, have "just a goblin", "just a human", or "just a mind flayer".

THAT is the fundamental difference AND the flaw in your argument.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Think OUTSIDE the PC/NPC lines. Think OUTSIDE the bun. Think OUTSIDE the box.

Or rather think inside.

You see, you CAN'T, no matter what you do, have "just a Krustacion" or "just a Vampire" or "just a Paragon". In the same way, you can't have "just a fighter", "just a wizard", or "just a psion". These are ALWAYS tied to the base creature LATER. You CAN, however, have "just a goblin", "just a human", or "just a mind flayer".

THAT is the fundamental difference AND the flaw in your argument.

None of which changes the fact that you technically 'add' Racial Traits to a character just as you would a Template.

Whether these Traits are ingrained from the start is irrelevant. Many Templates are also ingrained from the start, so what does that prove.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

I understand where both of you are coming from, even if you do not understand each other.

(*I can't believe I'm being a mediator for once.*)

Anubis is going as far back as the "race" and adding classes and templates from that point forward.

Upper_Krust is going as far back as the "player" and adding races, classes, and templates, from that point instead (and, presumably, a character sheet as well).

 

[Anubis]

I understand where both of you are coming from, even if you do not understand each other.

(*I can't believe I'm being a mediator for once.*)

Anubis is going as far back as the "race" and adding classes and templates from that point forward.

Upper_Krust is going as far back as the "player" and adding races, classes, and templates, from that point instead (and, presumably, a character sheet as well).

Oh I understood him perfect, just as you explained it here. That's why I told him to think outside (or perhaps inside) PC/NPC lines, because he was starting at the player point instead of the mechanic point, and the balancing need to be from a mechanic poin rather than a player point.

 

[kreynolds]

Hey folks,

I'm pretty sure I already asked you guys this, but I can't find it now; what are the CR modifiers for racial skill bonuses? Also, what would the design parameter be (the suggested maximum)?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey folks,

Hiya mate!

I'm pretty sure I already asked you guys this, but I can't find it now; what are the CR modifiers for racial skill bonuses?

+5 skill points = +0.1 CR

Also, what would the design parameter be (the suggested maximum)?

Maybe < +8 per HD/Level

Edit added the 'Per'