Revised Eldritch Knight

Below is a revised version of the eldritch knight. It's motivated to address what I take to be some of the main complaints directed towards it: (a) that it lacks anything even remotely resembling flavor; and (b) that the d6 hit die and the lack of ability to cast spells in armor make the class much to fragile to effectively combine magical and melee abilities. This version of the eldritch knight is a bit more "knight" than "eldritch" than the original: its entrance requirements are tilted more towards fighters, it loses the bonus feat and weakens the spellcasting progression but improves the hit die and fortitude saves. It also borrows shamelessly from the other established warrior/mage hybrid classes (the spellsword, the bladesinger, and Monte Cook's excellent mageblade) in order to both add much-need color to the class and to more seamlessly combine casting and melee abilities.

Any comments would, of course, be appreciated, particularly with respect to the extents to which the class is balanced, to which it improves on the existing eldritch knight, and to which the class seems playable and fun.

Eldritch Knight (Revised Version)
Flavor text goes here.
Hit Die: d8

Requirements
To qualify to become an eldritch knight, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (any melee weapon).
Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons.
Spells: Ability to cast arcane spells of 2nd level or higher.

Class Skills
The eldritch knight’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Swim (Str). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Ability Progression
Base Attack Bonus: Excellent (+1 per level, as fighter)
Strong Saves: Fortitude, Will (as cleric).
Special Abilities
1st - Attune weapon, armored arcana
2nd - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
3rd - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
4th - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
5th - Greater combat casting
6th - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
7th - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
8th - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
9th - Eldritch celerity
10th - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

Class Features
The following are class features of the eldritch knight.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An eldritch knight gains no additional proficiency in any weapons or armor.

Spells Per Day: At every level gained in the eldritch knight class except for first, fifth, and ninth, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (metamagic or item creation feats, hit points other than those she receives from the prestige class, and so on), except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

Attune Weapon (Su): Eldritch knights gain the ability to undertake a ritual involving a melee weapon that magically attunes the weapon with them, enabling them to use it as a focus for spells. The ritual takes a full day and requires material components worth five hundred gold pieces. An eldritch knight can only have one attuned weapon at any given time.

Eldritch knights gain numerous benefits with their attuned weapon. First, the special link between wielder and weapon offers the eldritch knight a +1 circumstance bonus to attack rolls with her attuned weapon. Second, the knight can incorporate the weapon into the somatic components of arcane spells she casts; she thus does not need a free hand to cast spells when holding her attuned weapon.

Third, the eldritch knight can store spells in her attuned weapon. This functions as though the weapon had the spell storing property, with the following exceptions. The eldritch knight may store multiple spells in the weapon, so long as the total levels of spells stored in the weapon do not exceed her class level (two 0th level spells count as one 1st level spell for this purpose). A weapon can only hold spells placed their by the eldritch knight attuned to it, and the spells stored only remain in the weapon for eight hours (at which point the magic energy binding the spell to the weapon dissipates and the spell is lost). Finally, the eldritch knight must announce that she is activating a stored spell before makes her attack roll; if she misses, the spell is wasted.

Armored Arcana (Ex): An eldritch knight ignores any arcane spell failure chance imposed by light armor.

Greater Combat Casting (Ex): A 5th level or higher eldritch knight may take 10 when making a Concentration check to cast a spell defensively.

Eldritch Celerity (Su): At 9th level and above, the eldritch knight can quickly raise her magical defenses quickly before combat. In effect, the eldritch knight gains a special version of the Quicken Spell metamagic feat. Once per round, she may cast any arcane spell whose effect is limited to the caster (that is, spells with a range of "personal" or targeted spells that the eldritch knight casts on herself alone) as a free action. Spells cast in this way use up a slot one level higher than the spell's actual level, and count against the normal limit of one quickened spell per round. Unlike the Quicken Spell feat, spontaneous casters can benefit normally from this ability.
 
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well, I for one like it.

But it does seem to have a high cost of entry (3 feats, and a level in a fighter-esque class).

Also, a lot of the books allow for either weapon focus or weapon finesse as a prereq. I'd do that. So if you want to finesse wield a dagger you don't need to also get focus in it.

Also, and I will be the only one who says this ... with the already-high cost of entry I'd go ahead and get read of the required martial weapon prof. Maybe make the finesse/focus any martial weapon.

Or maybe that's just biased towards elves and dwarves and orcs and the like.

You can have the lowered cost of entry especially since you arn't getting anywhere near full spell progression. You miss what, 3 levels? Add in the level of fighter, and that's only 8th level spells at 20th level. 8. But just barely.

and add bluff to the class skills.

and instead of Expertise, how about any of the fighter's bonus feats?

If you do the changes i just now said, you'd still be missing 3 levels of spell progression at 20th level. That's 8th level spells for a sorcerer, and ninth for a wizard. And just barely access to those. or is the point to not give wizards that take this 9th level spells?


But yeah, i do like it. And most of my suggestions probably arn't good ones, as they lower the cost of entry to much.
 


wth?

How is this the same class I'm looking at in the 3.5 DMG? The only thing that seems the same is the class list and the good BAB.

Advantages I like:

2 Good Saving Throws. This is like the Arcane Trickster and it makes sense. Coming from a fighter/wizard background you should get both saves (good).

Greater Combat Casting. Cool, not too powerful, but handy for someone who makes the checks a lot.

Things I don't like:

Requirements: Why require Combat Expertise? I mean, what does it have to do with an Eldritch Knight? Its also specifically a melee feat, and you felt the need to specify weapon focus with a melee weapon as well. Whats wrong with my archer/wizard also being an eldritch knight? Also since Im focusing and attuning just one weapon why do I need to know how to use the entire martial chain (or is that just a way to make sure I blow a level on a fighting class?).

Attune Weapon: This just feels too much like the spellsword (except with spellsword it was part of the flavor, here it just seems tacked on). Allowing it to incorperate somatic components is nice, but with 3.5 eschew materials most will have already taken that feat if they are going the martial route (imo) as it saves them the trouble a few levels earlier.

Casting in light armor. I mean, its light armor. First this infringes on the bard (who just got this ability in 3.5) who is a good candidate for either version of the prc (so basically the bard gains nothing) and second its such a blanked ability that there is no point not to get the best possible light armor you can. The spellsword version slowly gave you percentages. Finally since it is at 1st level its ripe for the picking by just taking 1 level of this prc then moving on.

Eldritch Celerity. How does this work exactly? Is it a spontaneous metamagic feat? If so how does a wizard make it take a slot one higher, a wizard prepares spells. He can't just quicken his mage armor and forget his invisibility spell can he? If he prepares it with celerity in advance can he still use it not in combat? As for a sorceror, how is this the one thing in the world that bypasses their full-round metamagic restriction?

Your issues stemmed from a lack of flavor, but you haven't really created much more flavor (imo). It seems more like a generic spellsword/bladesinger (for any type of weapon) and it gains more arcane spellcasting than either.

Technik
 

Hell, it's better than EK, but that's really not saying that much, seriously. :(

At least it has flavor, but it still gets too much of the best of both worlds.

3 levels of casting is only a drawback if you are comparing it to full casting.
That's not the proper comparison, guys.
To compare a spellcasting class that gets full BAB to one that gets full spellcasting shows how tilted the 'debate' about EK has gotten.

You just proposed a PrC that gets D8 HD, allows FULL BAB, gets good Will AND FORT saves, and almost gets full spellcasting AS WELL as gets pretty great special abilities when not getting spellcasting.

It's way overpowered, and if it wasn't for the EK, it would be immediately decried as munchkin.
No offense.

But since those observations and opinions will be handwaved, I'll add two specifics:

The Attune Weapon ability seems too abusable, since it seems he
could store 5th level spells in the weapon, to be released as free actions. The spellstoring ability is limited (for good reason, I'm sure) to 3rd level spells.

Also, the Eldritch Celerity ability is horrendously strong.
Also, how could it work if the wizard has already prepared their spells? Would they have to prepare the spell AS a Celerity'd spell for it to work?

P.s> It seems tailor-made for a sorcerer, since they could enter the PrC with Ftr2/Sor4 - or even better, a Pal2/Sor4.... hmmm.....
 

Re: wth?

Anabstercorian: I'll post this on the necromancer boards soonish. Thanks for the praise!

Technik: You raise interesting and valid points. Let me try to address them in turn.
Technik4 said:
Things I don't like:

Requirements: Why require Combat Expertise? I mean, what does it have to do with an Eldritch Knight? Its also specifically a melee feat, and you felt the need to specify weapon focus with a melee weapon as well. Whats wrong with my archer/wizard also being an eldritch knight? Also since Im focusing and attuning just one weapon why do I need to know how to use the entire martial chain (or is that just a way to make sure I blow a level on a fighting class?).
I thought it was important to require that the prospective eldritch knight had made a significant feat commitment to combat abilities, and so I wanted at least two combat feats to be necessary to qualify for the class. Why was Combat Expertise one of them? The game-balance reason has to do with a point Reapersaurus made -- sorcerers can qualify for the class just as quickly as wizards can, and eldritch celerity is probably a somewhat bigger boost for them. So I choose Combat Expertise over other combat feats because of its Int 13 ability requirement -- this shifts the balance of the class a bit more towards wizards, who need Int 13 more than sorcerers do (a sorcerer can get by quite well with average or lower Int, while a wizard clearly can't). The conceptual reason was that I just wanted eldritch knights to feel like skilled, canny combatants -- armored arcana and greater combat casting are the sort of ability that such skilled, canny combatants have -- and I think Combat Expertise reflects this theme.

The Eldritch Knight is still a perfectly viable archer/wizard -- you can still be a fine archer and have a bit of melee training, and two or three feats isn't all that punitive (a human ftr 2/wiz 4/eldritch knight 3 can have point blank shot, rapid shot, manyshot, and weapon focus (composite longbow) in addition to his qualifying feats). In fact, the original version was, I think, geared towards archers far too much: the fragility caused by the d6 hit die and lack of armor strongly discouraged the eldritch knight from entering melee unless absolutely necessary, while the combination of wizardly movement and nuking abilities blended with ranged attacks quite effecitvely. And let's not forget that there's already a high profile arcane ranged class around: why not just be a fighter/wizard/arcane archer?

The "whole martial chain" is largely to make sure you blow a level on a fighter-like class, yes. But the eldritch knight is also supposed to be a capable, fairly versatile combatant, which necessitates a broad range of weapons training.
Attune Weapon: This just feels too much like the spellsword (except with spellsword it was part of the flavor, here it just seems tacked on). Allowing it to incorperate somatic components is nice, but with 3.5 eschew materials most will have already taken that feat if they are going the martial route (imo) as it saves them the trouble a few levels earlier.
Attune weapon is there to make the melee/caster archetype a remotely viable one, something that the original eldritch just didn't really do (see the above discussion of archers). Is this really all that tacked on? It depends on the way you see the class. If you see them as mystical warriors who use their magical training to use their weapons in novel and potent ways, it seems quite appropriate.
Casting in light armor. I mean, its light armor. First this infringes on the bard (who just got this ability in 3.5) who is a good candidate for either version of the prc (so basically the bard gains nothing) and second its such a blanked ability that there is no point not to get the best possible light armor you can. The spellsword version slowly gave you percentages. Finally since it is at 1st level its ripe for the picking by just taking 1 level of this prc then moving on.
First off, the bard's not that great a candidate for either version, since the spellcasting progression already strongly favors wizards or sorcerers. In effect, any class like the eldritch knight seems to me to be basically unfair to bards, and so I just didn't design it with them in mind. I really don't see how this version encourages cherry-picking -- if you wanted to focus on casting, you're trading a full level of spellcasting progression for a small boost to attacks, hitpoints, and saves, a rudimentary attune weapon, and light armor -- all nice, but only really cool if you're serious about the whole warrior-mage thing. And if you are serious about that, you're disinclined to cherry pick. And keep in mind the next three levels, with full spellcasting, are pretty good for casters -- once you've got one level, there's no reason to stop for the next three.
Eldritch Celerity. How does this work exactly? Is it a spontaneous metamagic feat? If so how does a wizard make it take a slot one higher, a wizard prepares spells. He can't just quicken his mage armor and forget his invisibility spell can he? If he prepares it with celerity in advance can he still use it not in combat? As for a sorceror, how is this the one thing in the world that bypasses their full-round metamagic restriction?
The wizard has to prepare it ahead of time (just like a metamagic feat), the sorcerer doesn't. If this bothers you, think of eldritch celerity as a not-quite-metamagic-feat. It talks like a metamagic feat, it walks like a metamagic feat, but it ain't, strictly speaking, a metamagic feat. So it's not subject to the spontaneous restriction. Maybe the extra boon for spontaneous casters should require them to cast it as two slots higher rather than one. I apologize if the ability description is too vague.
Your issues stemmed from a lack of flavor, but you haven't really created much more flavor (imo). It seems more like a generic spellsword/bladesinger (for any type of weapon) and it gains more arcane spellcasting than either.
The "generic spellsword/bladesinger" was about the idea -- this should be a commonly available sort of prestige class, and I did want it to remain somewhat generic. If you think this version has just as little flavor as the original, well, you're entitled to your opinion. I think it does have more to it than the original version, but to some extent, this just seems subjective.

Reaper: You also raise interesting and valid points. You've got one very broad, systemic issue (which you also raise in your Divine Knight thread) -- that classes like the eldritch knight are just inherently broken. Let me postpone that discussion to a later post -- addressing your larger worry properly takes extended arguments that I'm just too tired for now. But as for your specific points:
Originally posted by reapersaurus
The Attune Weapon ability seems too abusable, since it seems he could store 5th level spells in the weapon, to be released as free actions. The spellstoring ability is limited (for good reason, I'm sure) to 3rd level spells.
Attune weapon does seem a little strong -- I should probably change the total level limit offered by attune weapon to one-half the eldritch knight's class level, rounded down (or maybe one-half class level, plus one). Keep in mind, though -- unlike the spellstoring property, the eldritch knight has a chance of wasting the spell on a missed attack. This imposes a substantial risk against high AC foes.
Also, the Eldritch Celerity ability is horrendously strong.
Also, how could it work if the wizard has already prepared their spells? Would they have to prepare the spell AS a Celerity'd spell for it to work?
See above for discussions about how the ability works for wizards. As for its strength -- I'm less convinced of that. Could you show me why "getting your combat buffs up quickly in time to go into melee" is so powerful? Could you give me an example of especially scary abuses?
 
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Hmm Interisting I like it but I agree it is a bit too powerful.

here are my adjustments:

(well as I started making adjustments I discovered that I was making some major changes. it is still similar but I changed the name cause I don't think it is a EK variant anymore. I still stole major parts of the original variant posted by comrade raoul and I really liked the greater combat casting and the Eldritch celerity but I made it have a #per day limit and only working with specific spells any suggestions on additional spells? the ignore spell failure chance is similar to that of the spellsword)

Name: Battle Mage.

Hit dice: d6

Requirements
To qualify to become a battle mage, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:
Feats: Combat Casting, Craft wand, Weapon Focus (any melee weapon).

Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons.

Spells: Ability to cast arcane spells of 3rd level or higher.

Class Skills
The Battle Mage’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Swim (Str). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Ability Progression
Base Attack Bonus: Excellent (+1 per level, as fighter)
Strong Saves: Fortitude, Will (as cleric).
Special Abilities

1st - Attune weapon, ignore spell failure 10%
2nd - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
3rd - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
4th - Eldritch celerity 1/ day
5th - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
6th - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
7th - Greater combat casting, ignore spell failure 20%
8th - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
9th - +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
10th - Eldritch celerity 2/day

Attune Weapon (Su): Battle Mages gain the ability to undertake a ritual involving a melee weapon that magically attunes the weapon with them, enabling them to use it as a focus for spells. The ritual takes a full day A Battle Mage can only have one attuned weapon at any given time.

The mage can incorporate the weapon into the somatic components of arcane spells she casts; she thus does not need a free hand to cast spells when holding her attuned weapon.

The Battle Mage can use her attuned weapon as a wand. all costs and restrictions are identical except the Battle Mage can use a different medium. all 50 charges must be used up before it is recharged or a new spell is added only one spell may be added to the weapon at a time this way. Only the Battle Mage can use her attuned weapon as a wand. This ability doesn't interfere with the spell storing ability if a charachter chooses to add that enhancement to her weapon (and vise versa) If the Battle Mage has craft staff or gets it during or after the battle mage progression they can instead use the attuned weapon as a rechargable staff following all the rules for creating a staff. with exceptions as above. and that an attuned weapon cannot be both a wand and a staff at the same time.

Ignore spell failure (Ex): See flavor text for spell sword. 10% @ 1st 20% at 7th. I was also thinking of 2x Battle mage level as the ignore spell failure but I'm not sure

Eldritch Celerity (Su): At 4th level and above, the Mattle Mage can quickly raise her magical defenses before combat. In effect, the Battle Mage gains a special version of the Quicken Spell metamagic feat. Once per day, (and twice a day at 10th) she may cast either mage armor or shield as a free action. Spells cast in this way use up a slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level, and count against the normal limit of one quickened spell per round. Unlike the Quicken Spell feat, spontaneous casters can benefit normally from this ability.

Greater Combat Casting (Ex): A 7th level or higher eldritch knight may take 10 when making a Concentration check to cast a spell defensively.
 
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You just proposed a PrC that gets D8 HD, allows FULL BAB, gets good Will AND FORT saves, and almost gets full spellcasting AS WELL as gets pretty great special abilities when not getting spellcasting.

I think this whole argument has to do with parts not adding up very well. For instance those 4 sorceror levels you take are 4 levels where you aren't getting bonus feats as a fighter, moving towards better rage and damage reduction as a barbarian, not improving your favored enemy and a myriad of other skills, or not gaining powers for your mount, spells, and smites. You do get, 2nd level spells, crappy hp, 1 good save, and crappy skills (for most fighting types). And you are 2 BAB lower than your brethren.

There hasnt been really a problem with the lopsided prcs that require some arcane ability. Take Arcane Archer, no spellcasting progression, so you are essentially still a fighter - hence fighter HD, BAB, etc. You are an archer that casts a few spells, or perhaps more depending on how you gained the levels/other prcs you may have. Most of the spellsword/bladesinger variants would give half-casting, with a good bab, decent hp, wizardly skills etc.

Except that, your BAB is still behind the fighters, and your magic is still behind the mages. Its the entire trade-off of multiclassing, but apparantly it has been decided that it was too weak in a party, despite its versatility. The answer are prcs like Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, and Mystic Theurge. These 3 prcs patch the 3 core "roles" with regards to wizard multiclassing - Fighter, Rogue, and Cleric.

The reason they look so powerful is because of the inherent weakness that multiclassing has already caused their BAB and spellcasting, if you don't agree then perhaps these prcs aren't for you and your campaign.

Technik
 

Technik4 said:
The reason they look so powerful is because of the inherent weakness that multiclassing has already caused their BAB and spellcasting.
There's nothing inherently 'weak' about multiclassing as a spellcaster. That's the biggest fake-out currently going.

Multiclassing is about making choices.
And the decision's not very hard when you can get BOTH spellcasting and BAB (not to mention good HD, good saves, and good special abilities).
 

I'm speaking in favor of the Eldritch Knight as written in 3.5. You dont get special abilities, you get 1 bonus feat, and you dont get 2 good saves, you get 1. The HD is only slightly better than wizards (d6). Basically ALL you are getting is good BAB and nearly continuous spellcasting. That IS a hard choice.

Sure you may have a higher spell level and a slightly better BAB than a spellsword, but a spellsword can wear medium armor and suffer 0 penalties or full plate and suffer 5%! The spellsword also has a better save bonus with will The requirements are also less steep, further encouraging multiclassing.

Compare it to a bladesinger, same BAB, again the bladesinger has 2 good saves and Tumble on their skill list. The bladesinger has far better defenses however, gaining their Int to AC as a dodge bonus and eventually getting 0% arcane spell failure in light armor. The bladesinger eventually also gets a private haste, and a way to cast a spell as a free action. In fact, you don't even need any fighter levels to become a bladesinger, a 10th level half-elven or elven wizard qualifies if he picks his skills and feats correctly. With 5th level wizard arcane spells and 4th level bladesinger spells the character would be pretty far behind the curve, but since the class only requires 1st level arcane spells you could get in with a level of sorceror (and choose spells that remain consistent despite ability score or caster level, like True Strike). Fill up your other 5 levels with whatever mix of good BAB classes you want, you're ready to rock as a bladesinger.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Eldritch Knight is very powerful, played correctly. The spellsword and the bladesinger are designed to be good fighters, thats why they gain nifty special abilities to help them survive in melee. The EK doesn't, it gets nearly full progression and 1 bonus feat. The class is only powerful if you stay out of melee (it also has worse saves and hp than the above classes, and requires more arcane spellcasting, which is more levels rolling d4). The EK is better at being a wizard than the spellsword and bladesinger, but all the wizard gets is a good bab, so whats the fear?

I have yet to see a broken EK. And if you compare the spellsword or even the bladesinger to a straight ftr/wiz, youll see that the "choice" of multiclassing as an arcanist is weaker, hence these classes strength.

Ftr10/Wiz10

Pal10/Sor10

Ftr5/Wiz5/Spl10

Pal9/Wiz1/Bld10

Along the way and especially at the end the second 2 are far more powerful than the first 2. So is spellcaster (specifically arcane) multiclassing broken or are the bladesinger and the spellsword too powerful?

Technik
 

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