Reynard's Repository 2025

[Reynard]

This seems to throw a good chunk of the armor rules out with the bathwater. How are you accounting for a solid AC 20?

Good question. I considered making it some sort of "armor check" but decided since only one attack is really an "attack" it wasn't worth the effort.

After all the point is to make monsters monstrous.

I have been thinking about this more, and how to try again with this Dragonbane method.

I think the fundamental problem is that D&D does not have an active defense mechanic, so you can't just default to parry/dodge like Dragonbane does. In that light, it is more important to look at the intent, rather than a straight conversion.

The point of the auto-hit, randomly determined monster attacks in DB is to a) differentiate monsters from NPC types, b) make monsters unpredictable, and b) make monsters dangerous and scary. Monsters "break the rules" of normal combat to accomplish this, and so that seems like the right way to go with this experiment.

So I think I would keep "Ferocity" and the multiple initiative rolls. I would give the monsters some reactions and one free one, but also let them abandon their next action initiative to use a reaction. This keeps something of the "legendary action" economy.

I think rather than auto-hitting, I would make most monster abilities and attacks some effect and damage even on a miss or save. I know, this is dangerously close to 4E territory, but it reinforces the "dangerous" aspect. Later when I have time, I will write up a couple of these monsters.

 

[Reynard]

D&D “Dragonbane Monster” Test 2

This is another attempt at creating a system for special or boss monsters in D&D 2024 inspired by the way monsters work in Dragonbane.

In this attempt, I am abandoning the “auto-hit” aspect of Dragonbane and replacing it with “at least some effect on a miss/save”.

This is the “Haunting Revant” undead house monster from the 2024 Monster Manual Previews:

Here is the text from the image, formatted for Google Docs:

HAUNTING REVENANT

Gargantuan Undead, Neutral

Armor Class 20 Hit Points 203 (14d20 + 56) Speed 30 ft.

STR	DEX	CON	INT	WIS	CHA
20 (+5)	12 (+1)	18 (+4)	16 (+3)	18 (+4)	20 (+5)
MOD	MOD	MOD	MOD	MOD	MOD
+5	+1	+4	+3	+4	+5

Saving Throws Str +5, Con +8, Cha +5

Skills Perception +14

Senses truesight 60 ft.; passive Perception 14

Languages Common plus two other languages

CR 10 (XP 5,900; PB +4)

Traits

Haunted Zone. Constitution Saving Throw DC 17, any creature that casts a spell while inside the revenant’s space. Failure: The spell fails and is wasted.

Undead Restoration. If the revenant dies, it revives 24 hours later unless Dispel Evil or Good is cast on its remains. If it revives, it animates another Gargantuan object or structure elsewhere on the same plane of existence; it now looks different but uses the same stat block and returns with all its Hit Points.


Ferocity: 2 (the Haunting Revenant rolls 2 initiative dice and acts on each one).

Actions: On each of its initiative rolls, roll a d6 and consult the following table to determine the Haunting Revenant’s action.
1-2. Slam. Melee Weapon Attack. Reach 10 feet. To Hit: +9. Damage: 5d8+5 bludgeoning on a hit; half damage on a miss.
3. Fling Debris: Ranged Weapon Attack. Range 30/90. To Hit +5. Damage: 5d8+5 bludgeoning on a hit; half damage on a miss.
4. Tremors: All creatures in the Haunting Revenant’s space and within 30 feet of the Haunting revenant make a Str DC 17 save or take 4d10 bludgeoning and be knocked prone; half damage and no prone on a save.
5. Monstrous Mein. All creatures within 60 feet that can see and/or hear the Haunting revenant are Frightened. Wisdom 17 save. Failure means frightened for 1 minute. Success means frightened until the end of their next round.
6. Invitation. Area: 60 foot cone. Save Charisma 17. Failure: the target is teleported inside the revenants space and swallowed and takes 5d8+5 bludgeoning damage. Success: the target takes half damage and is teleported to a random square adjacent to the Haunting Revenant (role 1d4 to determine side and 1d4 to determine space). A swallowed creature has total cover against attacks and other effects outside the revenant.
While the revenant has hit points, a swallowed creature can leave the revenant’s space only by using magic that enables planar travel, such as the Plane Shift spell.


Reactions: The Haunting Revenant has one Reaction as per normal rules. It may also forgo its next unused Action (no longer acting on that Initiative roll) to perform an additional Reaction. In addition to a standard Opportunity Attack, the Haunting Revenant has the following Reactions:
Purge. Trigger: a swallowed target deals damage to the Haunting Revenant. The Haunting Revenant expels the target in a random direction and distance. Roll a 1d8 to determine the direction (1= North, 2= Northeast, etc) and 1d6x5 feet to determine the distance. The target takes 4d8 bludgeoning damage.
Quake. Trigger: an enemy ends its movement on top of the Haunting Revenant. The Haunting Revenant buckles and surges, attempting to throw off the enemy. The enemy must make a Dex 15 saving throw or be thrown a random direction and distance as per Purge above, taking 1d6 bludgeoning damage per 5 feet thrown (this is considered falling damage and may be mitigated as such). In addition, currently swallowed victims take 2d8+5 bludgeoning damage.

 

[Reynard]

I am curious what @dave2008 thinks of this, specifically how it might affect CR (since they have a much better sense of the math than I). How much does "auto half damage" up the CR, do you think?

 

[dave2008]

I am curious what @dave2008 thinks of this, specifically how it might affect CR (since they have a much better sense of the math than I). How much does "auto half damage" up the CR, do you think?

I am not sure what you're asking my opinion about? Can you clarify?

 

[Reynard]

I am not sure what you're asking my opinion about? Can you clarify?

Post #12 is my second attempt at bringing the Dragonbane monster system into 5E. I used the stats previewed for the Haunted Revenant house as a foundation.

"Dragonbane system" means a couple things in particular: the monster has multiple actions at different initiative counts (Ferocity), and what actions it does take are based on a random chart.

In DB, monsters hit automatically unless the PC dodges or (more rarely) parries, which robs them of their next action. in my first iteration of the system, I did something like that, but did not like the way it interacted with AC, as pointed out by another poster.

In this iteration, I went with "half damage on a miss or save" instead, to keep the feel but make it work a little better with how D&D does things. What I am asking you, based on some discussions we have had in the past, is what impact do you think that -- "that" being damage on a miss/save -- has on the CR of the Haunted Revenant. How much higher is the CR because it effectively does damage every round?

 

[dave2008]

Post #12 is my second attempt at bringing the Dragonbane monster system into 5E. I used the stats previewed for the Haunted Revenant house as a foundation.

"Dragonbane system" means a couple things in particular: the monster has multiple actions at different initiative counts (Ferocity), and what actions it does take are based on a random chart.

In DB, monsters hit automatically unless the PC dodges or (more rarely) parries, which robs them of their next action. in my first iteration of the system, I did something like that, but did not like the way it interacted with AC, as pointed out by another poster.

In this iteration, I went with "half damage on a miss or save" instead, to keep the feel but make it work a little better with how D&D does things. What I am asking you, based on some discussions we have had in the past, is what impact do you think that -- "that" being damage on a miss/save -- has on the CR of the Haunted Revenant. How much higher is the CR because it effectively does damage every round?

OK, I understand what your asking. I will need to do a little investigation and thinking about this. There are a few WotC monsters that do auto-damage, but, IIRC, it is not part of their whole DPR. Additionally, many things do half damage (breath weapons) and that damage isn't part of the CR calculation at all. But again, that is not every attack.

My initial thought, by the way WotC calculates things, would be that it has little to no effect on the CR. CR uses the best possible DPR for its calculation. In this case the best possible DPR is the average damage, not the half damage. However, since it is always doing some damage it may, essentially, have an effect on the accuracy side of the offensive CR calculation. I will take a look and get back to you.

Regarding Ferocity, I have done something like this but with the initiative counts being developed by one roll + a set number. That might be easier. So something like:

Draconic Actions​

On its initiative count +10, the dragon can take one of the following actions:

or

Ferocity. On its initiative count +10, the Haunting Revenant can take a another turn.

​

 

[Reynard]

OK, I understand what your asking. I will need to do a little investigation and thinking about this. There are a few WotC monsters that do auto-damage, but, IIRC, it is not part of their whole DPR. Additionally, many things do half damage (breath weapons) and that damage isn't part of the CR calculation at all. But again, that is not every attack.

My initial thought, by the way WotC calculates things, would be that it has little to no effect on the CR. CR uses the best possible DPR for its calculation. In this case the best possible DPR is the average damage, not the half damage. However, since it is always doing some damage it may, essentially, have an effect on the accuracy side of the offensive CR calculation. I will take a look and get back to you.

Thank you.

Regarding Ferocity, I have done something like this but with the initiative counts being developed by one roll + a set number. That might be easier. So something like:

Draconic Actions​

On its initiative count +10, the dragon can take one of the following actions:

or

Ferocity. On its initiative count +10, the Haunting Revenant can take a another turn.

​

I considered something like that, but it probably comes as no surprise that I chose the more chaotic and swingy option.

 

[dave2008]

Thank you.

I considered something like that, but it probably comes as no surprise that I chose the more chaotic and swingy option.

PS - I want to clarify I some Saturday chores to take care of, so I probably will not get back to you until this evening or tomorrow, sorry!

 

[Reynard]

PS - I want to clarify I some Saturday chores to take care of, so I probably will not get back to you until this evening or tomorrow, sorry!

No problem. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[dave2008]

No problem. Thanks for taking the time.

F*** chores! I just checked the Marut & Kolyarut. Both of their DPRs are 100% auto-damage. If the damage was not automatic their to hits would be +17 & +13 respectively. I was surprised to learn that their CR calculation is correct only if you assume those to hit bonuses. So there are two possible scenarios:

1. WotC doesn't care on high CR monsters whether the damage is based on to hit bonus or auto. This seems surprising, but the numbers don't lie.
2. The monsters were already transitioning to the new math for higher CR monsters and thus do more damage than 2014 MM monsters at high CRs.

Even if the Marut was using the new math, it would only make a 1-2 CR difference that it was all auto-damage. Thus, I would think your half damage on a miss would have no impact on the monsters CR (half damage was about a -5 CR hit and cancels any advantage form auto-damage).