D&D 4E Rich Baker on 4e Realms changes

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
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Rich Baker has just been making a few interesting posts on the Realms in 4e. You can find today's posts here.

Rich Baker - We're committed to the changes
We're pretty committed to the scope of the changes we're making at this point. We've got a number of projects underway (several novel series, the new FRCG, the FRPG), and we're just not going to seriously reverse course now. Adjusting the implementation of some things -- sure, that's still possible. Putting everything back? Sorry, we've got to see this through.

Viewed in isolation, no single change we're contemplating would really pass the "is this ABSOLUTELY necessary?" test. If we subject every change we're planning to that test, then nothing would change (which, no doubt, would please a segment of our audience). But we don't think we can stay exactly where we are forever.

In my opinion, there is a *minimum* amount of change that's desirable with a campaign update, and a *maximum* amount of change. Change too little, and you haven't provided that clear starting point needed to entice new fans... or reawaken the interest of old fans who have mastered everything we've shown them so far. Change too much, and it's not the same property anymore. Most of the arguments we're having are about where each of those marks really lies.

Rich Baker on Introducing New Players to the Realms, and related matters
1. a) My question is how does WotC plan to entice new gamers to Forgotten Realms if the proposed changes hamstring the network of Forgotten Realms enthusiasts - people who are crucial to selling Forgotten Realms to new players by word of mouth and by acting as repositories of knowledge about the Realms, excitedly passing it on to enquiring new souls seeking more knowledge about the game.

A couple of good questions, Roman -- I wanted to wait until I had a few minutes to try to respond with some thought.

1a. I have a pet theory I call the "elevator" theory. Each year, a certain number of people enter our demographic and become D&D players. We want to make sure that there's an elevator with an open door waiting on the "first floor" to take them up to the Realms. It's been a long time since we put an elevator on the first floor for the potential Realms fans. Without a regular influx of new fans, pure "life friction" and attrition will thin out the number of Realms games being played and books being read. If there's a proselytizing network out there as you suggest, they're not proselytizing enough to fill that elevator for us. We have to do some work too.

1. b) Making vast changes to the setting, you must have known you would alienate a large percentage of the existing Forgotten Realms fanbase. Apparently, the purpose of those changes is to open up Forgotten Realms to new gamers, but the design philosophy behind the setting seems to be moving towards the design philosophy underlying the Eberron campaign setting, which has ostensibly been more successful in enticing new gamers and generating sales than Forgotten Realms.

1b. We're not moving Realms toward Eberron. In what way do you think we are? (Other than something cosmetic like the number of deities?) There's nothing driving us to make Realms more like Eberron.

2) Is it really worth it to throw out the high-level characters? Apart from the emotional/story attachments many 'old' FR players have towards them, the absence of other high-level characters than the PCs, feels like it is not a living world, where things are happening in the background whatever the PCs decide, or don't decide to do.

2. When we ask gamers what turns them off of Forgotten Realms, one of the hits we keep getting back is "all those high-level NPCs steal the limelight." Whether the perception is an accurate reflection of how the setting really works is immaterial--it's a perception that stops gamers from trying out the Realms. We're not planning a campaign of wanton NPC slaughter, but I sure need to show the broader gaming audience that it's time to let go of that perception. Lecturing undecided purchasers about how NPCs *should* be used in the Realms doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me. How else could we tackle this problem of perception without real change?

3) In some ways, the changes you are implementing seem like they make it feasible to minimize changes in the future. I don't really have a problem with changes in general so long as I like the resluts, but for the sake of those disgruntled by this, can you commit that there will be at least 3-year time periods (measured in RL) between any further major storywise upheavals in the Realms?

3. No, I can't guarantee no upheavals for three years. First off, it's not up to me. More to the point: I can tell you right now that we don't have any planned, and that we'd like to avoid Realms-shaking events for a while... but if a Bob Salvatore or Paul Kemp or Elaine Cunningham some other talented author drops a truly kick-butt story proposal in our laps that happens to shake the Realms, we'd be foolish to tell them that we can't accommodate that outstanding story. If it's the *right* story, it's the right story.

Rich Baker on Cormyr
With all the troubles we've seen popping up in the Dales and Cormyr throughout third edition, will we see these areas getting a breather?

Well... yes, they actually make out pretty well. Cormyr regains much of its strength, and the return of a strong elven realm in Myth Drannor definitely improves the situation around Cormanthor. I'll say more about that when I can.

Rich Baker on the existing History of the Realms
Will the history of the Realms be modified?

No, nothing that you know to be true will be substantially altered. (Every now and then we find reason to tweak something, of course.)

Now, sometimes we take events that are known and spin much larger stories out of them... so a timeline entry from a long time ago might just be the tip of an iceberg, really. In fact, there are a couple of real jaw-droppers in that regard coming up. But nothing we add in way of detail, explanation, and heretofore unexplored or unknown events will "undo" existing Realms history. Your Grand History of the Realms is going to be honored as written for the foreseeable future.

Rich Baker on non-Nuking of NPCs
That's wonderful to hear, but when Chris Perkins mentions in a podcast that high-level NPCs will be "nuked", doesn't that leave the impression that there's going to be a "wanton NPC slaughter"?

Yep, I would agree that nuked = wanton slaughter to most folks. I think Chris used a shortcut he didn't really mean to use.

Many high-level characters will be exiting the stage in 4e, but many others will still be around. No one's getting killed off specifically because they're high level. Now, there are some Chosen who are getting removed from the stage specifically because they're Chosen; the Chosen tend to be the "poster children" in the wider D&D audience for the perception that Realms games are about a set of uber-NPCs.

Cheers!
 

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So, is this bit...
We're pretty committed to the scope of the changes we're making at this point. We've got a number of projects underway (several novel series, the new FRCG, the FRPG), and we're just not going to seriously reverse course now. Adjusting the implementation of some things -- sure, that's still possible. Putting everything back? Sorry, we've got to see this through.

... pretty much the opposite of the the 'we'll take your concerns into account and rethink some of these changes' post from a while back, when the FR fans were freaking out?

Because it reads to me like they told the skittish ones what they wanted to hear and just went on with what they were planning to do anyway.
 

Voss said:
... pretty much the opposite of the the 'we'll take your concerns into account and rethink some of these changes' post from a while back, when the FR fans were freaking out?

Because it reads to me like they told the skittish ones what they wanted to hear and just went on with what they were planning to do anyway.
No, even back then they said they weren't going to change what they were doing. They said they didn't expect as much of a backlash from it and that they still had some room to play around with the final product a bit and they would take what people said into account for what they could change.

However, never did I see someone say "If you complain enough, the Spellplague won't happen or we won't advance the timeline." Those things have been planned for years, they already show up in a novel and in the Grand History of the Realms. The entire 4e FRCS is being planned around them. They can't be changed.

On the other hand, if people say that they really like the Realms having powerful magic users and large empires, they might be able to write in the leader of one of the new countries as a powerful magic user.
 

In 25+ years of playing D&D, I've never owned an FR material nor have I played in the Realms beyond a short campaign. I say that mostly to note... I don't get all the concern over the Realms.

--sam
 

1a. I have a pet theory I call the "elevator" theory. Each year, a certain number of people enter our demographic and become D&D players. We want to make sure that there's an elevator with an open door waiting on the "first floor" to take them up to the Realms. It's been a long time since we put an elevator on the first floor for the potential Realms fans. Without a regular influx of new fans, pure "life friction" and attrition will thin out the number of Realms games being played and books being read. If there's a proselytizing network out there as you suggest, they're not proselytizing enough to fill that elevator for us. We have to do some work too.

I don't thinking making widescale changes to the Realms and then trying to sell it to the Realm's critics will work. The dislike of the Realms verges on rabid and I have seen a number of posts on different forums from anti-Realms fans that have stated that they will never touch a Realms product, regardless of what WOTC does to the setting. The dislike runs that deep.

So, who is the audience? Not the existing Realms fan base, because despite their protests and concerns, WOTC is plowing ahead with wide sweeping changes to the setting.

Is it completely new audience? Then why change anything because a person who has never heard of the Realms isn't going to care one way or another about the 30 year legacy issues.

Is it trying to sell to existing D&D fans who may have looked at FR at one point and were put off by it? As I said, resentment runs deep and I don't see FR detractors suddenly dropping their existing campaign settings and running out to buy a revamped FR setting because WOTC says they removed the twinky high level NPCs and whatever else pushed these peoples' buttons.

Elminster is still around as is Drizzt. That is not going to win over the anti-Elminster / anti-Drizzt crowd.

The novels are still going to be canon. That isn't going to win over detractors who hate the novels affecting the campaign setting.

The history is not being changed so that isn't going to win over the people who don't like the Realms 'everything and the kitchen sink' hodge podge that has accumulated over 20 years.

Seems to me that 'who is the audience?' needed to be discussed more in the boardrooms because I frankly don't see how WOTC gains by following the course they plotted.
 

Majoru Oakheart said:
No, even back then they said they weren't going to change what they were doing. They said they didn't expect as much of a backlash from it and that they still had some room to play around with the final product a bit and they would take what people said into account for what they could change.

I was thinking more about this kind of statement rather than the spellplague or whatever. And the final answer to this seems to be: 'Eh. You've forgotten what you were so riled up about, so we aren't going to bother to play around with the final product.'
 

BlackMoria said:
I don't thinking making widescale changes to the Realms and then trying to sell it to the Realm's critics will work. The dislike of the Realms verges on rabid and I have seen a number of posts on different forums from anti-Realms fans that have stated that they will never touch a Realms product, regardless of what WOTC does to the setting. The dislike runs that deep.
There are about as many rabid haters as there are rabid fans. Both won't like the new edition probably.

BlackMoria said:
Is it completely new audience? Then why change anything because a person who has never heard of the Realms isn't going to care one way or another about the 30 year legacy issues.
Yes, and people who have never seen the Realms ARE affected by the 30 year legacy. If I come into D&D and FR from the point of view of someone who has never played in the Realms before and I buy the FRCS and start to read through it to figure out how to run the Realms, it is daunting. It was daunting for me and I've played D&D for many, many years and played in Realms games before. It's because the books like to stress the grand history the world has and all the NPCs that are important to the world and the power groups and their political workings.

If I sit down and read it looking specifically for "What town I should start players in, how they get magic items in the town, where the nearest dungeons are and what kind of adventures they should expect to go on?" I won't find it easily without wading through the other stuff. Which turns people off.

BlackMoria said:
Is it trying to sell to existing D&D fans who may have looked at FR at one point and were put off by it? As I said, resentment runs deep and I don't see FR detractors suddenly dropping their existing campaign settings and running out to buy a revamped FR setting because WOTC says they removed the twinky high level NPCs and whatever else pushed these peoples' buttons.
I'm doing it. I don't consider myself a Realms detractor. I liked the Realms when I played in it. However the thought of running it used to drive me crazy with fear at having to learn all of that stuff in order to run it correctly. My DM who ran us in the Realms knew it all. I could never compete with him and I didn't want to try.

BlackMoria said:
The history is not being changed so that isn't going to win over the people who don't like the Realms 'everything and the kitchen sink' hodge podge that has accumulated over 20 years.
The history is still the same...but it is partially reset. I mean the Time of Troubles still happened. However, when Mystra is dead and so is Cyric and Bhaal and a number of other gods that were involved, I no longer need to KNOW about the Time of Troubles to run FR.

I don't need to know that Cyric is bitter at Mystra over the events that happened there and that his followers will go out of their way to make Mystra and her followers miserable.

BlackMoria said:
Seems to me that 'who is the audience?' needed to be discussed more in the boardrooms because I frankly don't see how WOTC gains by following the course they plotted.
I see them making large gains in the "Never played FR before and don't know about it", "Never played D&D before", "On the fence about FR", and "Played FR but didn't like a lot of things about it" areas.
 

BlackMoria said:
Seems to me that 'who is the audience?' needed to be discussed more in the boardrooms because I frankly don't see how WOTC gains by following the course they plotted.

If the current strategy isn't working, it's time for a new strategy.

Plain and simple, FR is not currently attracting new fans. Continuing 'more-of-the-same' will only delay its demise. A much better idea is to try something different, At worst, it speeds the demise... which was coming anyway. At best, it completely invigorates the line and people convert in masses.

Remember, the online squawking about the changes is coming from a very small but very vocal minority. 4E FR is not made for them. It's made to attract new customers, as well as some of those that were once FR fans but got fed up (like me), and to maybe appeal to some of the grognards as well. Will it alienate some of the die-hards? Absolutely. But it also has very real potential to bring in many more new customers than it loses.

As an aside, I find all the stuff about 4E and FR to be fascinating from a business perspective as I am wrapping up my MBA (including a marketing class) while I watch WotC's efforts--and the corresponding internet responses--unfold, both for and against.
 
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I'd say I'm a part of the audience.

In 2ed I only ever played the external realms: Maztica, Kara Tur, and Al-Quadim.

In 3ed I only ever played the realms when forced to by a DM I liked or an adventure that had been written within it. I had no particular dislike for the Realms and found them to be superior to all the rest of the 'generic' fantasy settings produced by WotC and TSR, but I still found them too restrictive for my preferred style of play.

Making the Realms PoL, distancing it from the canon of novels, and shaking out some of the high level NPC legacies, rather than explicitly taking out the characters themselves, will almost certainly bring me back in.

Particularly if there are new races, compelling changes in the pantheon, and a new map with more blank spaces and a few new names.

Regardless of how it's executed I'll buy it. Depending on how it's executed I'll run it or even get into the RPGA.
 

BlackMoria said:
I don't thinking making widescale changes to the Realms and then trying to sell it to the Realm's critics will work. The dislike of the Realms verges on rabid and I have seen a number of posts on different forums from anti-Realms fans that have stated that they will never touch a Realms product, regardless of what WOTC does to the setting. The dislike runs that deep.

So, who is the audience?
New gamers, like the rest of 4E. They just don't want to have the perception that the FR are for experienced players only. And, frankly, FR fans shouldn't want that either, because with every gamer who dies off or stops playing, that's a step closer to the grave for the setting unless new players are brought in.

Every time someone asked about getting into the FR for the first time here on these boards, it was the FR fans who pushed all the OOP FR books (via PDF, Noble Knight or eBay) and all the novels on the newbies. That's insanely intimidating.

Yes, the haters had their say, too, but even the fans scare the crap out of people who are considering the setting. Let people decide they like the Realms before requiring them to ace a college major's worth of back history and lore.
 

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