D&D 4E Rich Baker on 4e Realms changes

[JoeGKushner]

Didn't adress why the game world and the fiction world have to be so closely related.

 

[Voss]

Not sure about new gamers being the only audience. Admittedly, new FR doesn't do squat for the haters, or even the people who like the current FR, but if you're really gunning for the new gamer audience, you might as well break out a whole new setting. That way you get more sales to the haters and current folks as well.

It would be much easier to break in a new setting at the beginning of 4e, when there isn't any 4e compatible setting material, then it will be to take people away from Eberron and FR and convince them that they need yet another D&D setting.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

if you're really gunning for the new gamer audience, you might as well break out a whole new setting.

New settings don't have the benefits of positive associations via CRPGs. There are plenty of people who play Baldur's Gate, etc., without being pen and paper D&D players. That's an audience with a positive association with the Realms name right there who wouldn't be drawn in by Pointsoflightsia or whatever new setting.

 

[TwinBahamut]

So, who is the audience?

Well, I think the new audience might be people like me.

When I started D&D around the release of 3E, the Forgotten Realms were being touted as the campaign setting for D&D. Since I was eager to buy any D&D books I could find at the time, I bought a copy of the 3E FRCS. That was the one D&D book that I didn't like. For a fan new to D&D like me, that books was useless. It was like trying to unravel a good story from a dictionary. It was such a condensed mass of detail piled onto detail that any use for the book or interesting aspects of the setting got completely lost. All I ever learned for it was that Elminster was some super-wizard with his own magic pipe, and that some organization in some town happened to be lead by a Beholder (for some reason I can't fathom).

The FRCS was the only D&D book I ever returned to the bookstore.

But, I am not a person who hates the Realms. The Realms never caught my eye, but I don't actively hate it. I just don't care about it. And it is not that I hate published settings either. I own enough Eberron books to prove that false. It is just that the Realms were trapped by their own history before I ever had a chance to enjoy the setting.

I do intend to give the 4E Realms a chance. Maybe it will capture my interest this time around.

 

[Uzzy]

Plain and simple, FR is not currently attracting new fans.

*raises hand* I'm Uzzy, and I'm a Realmsfan as of 2004.

All WOTC wanted from the Realms could have been achieved with a change in presentation. Show smaller stories. Less RSE's that keep changing the playing field. Better Campaign Setting book (though, the 3rd Edition one is brilliant). Novels concentrating on being good stories, rather then being forced to kill off masses of gods and cause huge upheavals. Instead, they are taking a very radical course of action, which leads to this..

There are about as many rabid haters as there are rabid fans. Both won't like the new edition probably.

WOTC may very well end up changing the setting too much for the 'rabid' fans, who often push the setting via word of mouth, DM games in the Realms and heck, even create new lore for the setting. It's also likely to not be changed enough to satisfy the people who dislike the Realms. Sure, some may check out the FRCG, but how many will stick with it?

Anyway, it makes me wish I fell in love with Eberron. For some reason WOTC aren't going to massively change that setting, after an outcry on the WOTC boards and elsewhere. Good for them.

 

[Voss]

New settings don't have the benefits of positive associations via CRPGs. There are plenty of people who play Baldur's Gate, etc., without being pen and paper D&D players. That's an audience with a positive association with the Realms name right there who wouldn't be drawn in by Pointsoflightsia or whatever new setting.

Meh. If the D&D tag isn't drawing them in, an FR tag isn't going to help that much. And honestly, BG and that lot are old enough in CRPG terms that they aren't drawing in the 'new crowd' anyway.

Even NWN 2 is dragging at over a year old now. And it was arguably (because computer games aren't reviewed in any sort of objective way other than advertising dollars) a pretty poor showing.

 

[vagabundo]

WOTC may very well end up changing the setting too much for the 'rabid' fans, who often push the setting via word of mouth, DM games in the Realms and heck, even create new lore for the setting. It's also likely to not be changed enough to satisfy the people who dislike the Realms. Sure, some may check out the FRCG, but how many will stick with it?

I think that is a risk that they have to take. Eberron was a risk and it has worked out very well. I cant run it, my players are fantasy conservatives, but I can see how a setting that is designed from the ground up could work really well. I would like if they did this to FR. Bring out the special parts of the setting, differentiate it from the default POL setting.

 

[Firevalkyrie]

Meh. If the D&D tag isn't drawing them in, an FR tag isn't going to help that much. And honestly, BG and that lot are old enough in CRPG terms that they aren't drawing in the 'new crowd' anyway.

Even NWN 2 is dragging at over a year old now. And it was arguably (because computer games aren't reviewed in any sort of objective way other than advertising dollars) a pretty poor showing.

NWN2 is... not the game it should be. The graphics are a pile of ugliness and the character models are far, far too bland. I bought it at CompUSA's going out of business sale, and at $30 I still paid too much for it. Plus, as far as I can tell, the development community has mostly stuck with NWN1, further limiting NWN2's potential uptake by reducing the number of interesting fan-made modules and modifications available for it.

 

[Voss]

That isn't really surprising. Obsidian's head guy has all the business sense of a lemon, and they're essentially trying to cannibalize someone else's tech and squeeze the last few drops out of an out-of-date engine (after upgrading the shinez graffix, of course, to the point that you need more than system requirements run it even passingly well). And they rush through development, leaving a lot of problems behind to be sorted out later.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

All WOTC wanted from the Realms could have been achieved with a change in presentation. Show smaller stories. Less RSE's that keep changing the playing field. Better Campaign Setting book (though, the 3rd Edition one is brilliant). Novels concentrating on being good stories, rather then being forced to kill off masses of gods and cause huge upheavals. Instead, they are taking a very radical course of action, which leads to this..

It wouldn't have worked. I'm very interested in the new Realms. I wouldn't be in that one. The simple fact that Drizzt saved someone in a novel published 10 years ago is still important to the setting today is what is daunting to people like me.

The only thing that is really getting me to try the Realms again is that knowing that there are likely new people in charge of every country in the world and that each country might have changed so dramatically that its history doesn't need to be known to understand the present day setup of the world.

I LIKE stories about gods and upheavals and I have no problem with them being in the novels. I have loved all the FR novels I've read(which is a good 20 or so). I have problems with the fact that every corner of the world and every small NPC is detailed somewhere(either in one supplement or another or in novels). I don't like the idea of trying to run the PCs through an adventure set in (insert name of town here) and realizing that I'm an idiot because I didn't read novel 4 of series X so I didn't know that the mayor of the town is a 12th level wizard who regularly protects the town from danger. Which, of course, OBVIOUSLY I should know since that character also shows up in 3 other novels and his stats are in gaming supplement XYZ.

I have a problem with the fact that despite the fact that I've read about 20 FR novels and played in a 2 FR games that lasted about a year each that I can still sit down with the average FR fan and be told hundreds of things I had no idea about.

The only thing that would make me try it is an upheaval so big that I KNOW that at least 90% of all events that happened in novels and 1st Edition supplements are not longer relevant to "modern day" FR. This change is big enough for

WOTC may very well end up changing the setting too much for the 'rabid' fans, who often push the setting via word of mouth, DM games in the Realms and heck, even create new lore for the setting. It's also likely to not be changed enough to satisfy the people who dislike the Realms. Sure, some may check out the FRCG, but how many will stick with it?

Well, as Rich Baker says up there, if 'rabid' FR fans are pushing the setting so much by word of mouth, they aren't seeing the numbers from it. Plus, as said above by someone else, I've seen 'rabid' FR fans scare off new people who asked about the setting just as much if not more often than they helped promote the setting.

I'm not sure creating new lore for a setting is good. It just adds to the "weight" of the setting and the barrier to entrance. Ideally for me, a setting would have the minimum lore required to be interesting and invoke people's imaginations but not enough that it takes more more than a day or 2 to read through it and understand how the setting works.

I'd like: "The country of X is a metropolitan place where wizards are trained on a regular basis at the famous Golden Wyvern school located in the capital city of Y. The leader of the country is a kind man who has good relations with his neighbors. The country is famous for its rack of lamb and the strange custom of the locals to play a game involving a ball and some sticks."

Rather than: "The country of X is the home of NPC A. He helped form the country 1500 years ago since he lives forever. The country was once the site of a battle between him and the great dragon BOB which wiped out most of the cities in the southern half of the country. The people still talk about it and some areas are not yet rebuilt. He is also the father of the first king of the country so all the Kings for the last 1500 years have looked to him for advice and guidance and will listen to almost anything he says. He is locked in constant battle with the archdemon JULIE who often sends her troops after him attempting to wipe him out once and for all. These troops are a common sight in this country and they roam around looking for him and causing problems in the process.

Also located in the country is an ancient city from a powerful magical empire of the past that NPC A uncovered during one of his adventures. He went inside and found the powerful artifact JOE which he used to imprison the evil god JIM whose followers will never forget the slight and also try to kill him whenever they can. He lives in town Y. However, he is normally out of town on an adventure and is rarely seen. Whatever you do don't use him to overshadow any PC. Do not make the game about HIM, it should be about the players."

The current Realms is more about the history of the NPCs than it is about the world itself. Or at least it's the history of the world viewed through the eyes of the NPCs.

Anyway, it makes me wish I fell in love with Eberron. For some reason WOTC aren't going to massively change that setting, after an outcry on the WOTC boards and elsewhere. Good for them.

It's because the setting is already player friendly. I have ran Eberron games and I have no idea who the leaders of any of the countries are or who the leaders of the Dragonmarked houses are. Their names are listed in some of the books if I wanted to look them up, but they aren't important to running Eberron or even a focus of the game at all.