Rideby Mount and Rider

[SidusLupus]

-Players of mine, go away-
















So the title of the post is slightly misleading since I dont want the title to give away exact details incase my players come across this post. I'm adding one more thing to the mix.

Rideby Attack, Flyby Attack, Mount and Rider.

In the game I'm running, the paladin has sucessfully made friends with and bonded a flying magical creature as his mount.

The mount has flyby attack as a feat. After careful reading of both flyby and rideby I've come to the following conclusion:

The mount my make flyby attacks, I.e. may move attack and then move again against another creature. The rider however, may not since he does not have the proper feat (ie rideby attack) to do so. For both the mount and rider to make move attack moves the rider would have to get the rideby attack feat as far as I understand it. Does he need to though, since the mount has it already?

Also, if the rider readies an action to attack as the mount passes an enemy within range does that not duplicate the effects of the feat? Can he even do that? There was an initial skirmish tonight where I let him do that, but i'm not entirely sure because it seems like it makes rideby attack pointless. Although I think that would mean he only gets one attack every two rounds instead of an attack per round with the feat. Right now I'm just handling it that the mount and he have the same initiative. Should I be making them roll seperately?

Also, presuming he takes Rideby attack, he'd need to take mounted combat first. Would the fact that the mount has an int of 13 and can speak make a difference on ride check = mount's ac function of mounted combat? (i guess that question is more house rules so feel free to ignore it)

Also, how would the training a creature to combat rules from handle animal apply? It already knows how to defend itself, but it doesnt know how to defend itself with a person on it's back. keep in mind it's smart and talks. Same guidelines maybe but at an accelerated rate?

Thanks much

 

[Henrix]

There are some tricky questions there, the normal rules for riding are not really applicable when the mount is an intelligent being on it' own.

There are a couple of Rules of the Game articles on Wizards site, All about mounts, but all that was said about it was reiterating what is on p.205 in the DMG:

Intelligent Mounts

According to the Dungeon Master's Guide, a mount with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher acts like an NPC ally rather than a mount. Riding such an ally works much like riding an aggressive mount in battle (see Part Two), except that you don't have to make a Ride check to act while riding. (If your mount carries you willingly, the ride is smooth enough so your actions aren't restricted.) You also cannot make a Ride check to control the mount's actions, but you can make a Diplomacy (or possibly a Wild Empathy) check to get the mount to accept your direction. If you do, your mount acts just like a mount trained for combat riding.

Even if you cannot (or do not choose to) direct your mount's actions, you still can ride along, making your own initiative roll and possibly delaying until after your mount acts, as noted in Part Two.

So, all in all, I think that Ridy By Attack is not usable with an intelligent mount, but that your paladin will have to just be ready to attack when he comes into range.
Nor do you train them, but you seem to be able to use Mounted Combat if you convince them to accept your leadership.

 

[SidusLupus]

Hrm then that almost makes intelligent mounts worse in combat than unintelligent mounts doesn't it?

You trade the possibility of falling off for not being able to use any of the mounted feats?

 

[Henrix]

Well, perhaps the answer lies here:

you can make a Diplomacy (or possibly a Wild Empathy) check to get the mount to accept your direction. If you do, your mount acts just like a mount trained for combat riding.

I'd say that means that if you convince the mount to accept the riders commands, then it works like a trained mount for all feats and skills. I can see different beasts reacting differently to that proposal.
After all, a paladins special mount always has a higher Int than 3!

So, perhaps Ride By Attack is usable with an intelligent mount.
But normally a Ride By Attack does not allow the mount to attack. If it has the Flyby Attack it might.

In short, there are two ways to do it:
If the mount is in charge, the paladin will have to ready an action to attack when the mount makes a flyby attack. The paladin cannot use his riding feats.
If the paladin is in charge, and he has Ride By Attack, and the mount has Flyby Attack, then both can make an attack as they fly past.

(Notice also that you only can make a single move as part of a flyby attack, not a double move as when making a normal ride by attack. The mount must, after all, use an action for its attack.)

 

[Artoomis]

Fly-By attack with readied action will work great, but remember that BOTH mount and rider are subject to AoO from the movement they are making.

If the paladin takes Ride-By Attack you should give him full advantage of the feat. Mind you, it's not all that easy to set up the charge, while Fly-By is pretty easy to do as it can involve changing direction. Keep in mind that a three- dimensional charge can be even harder to set up than normal as you need to keep going straight - sometimes that can take you right into the ground! On the other hand, sometimes you can scoot along at 10' up and attack down as you go by - nice what you can get it!

FLYBY ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.


RIDE-BY ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
Special: A fighter may select Ride-By Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[FireLance]

Fly-By attack with readied action will work great, but remember that BOTH mount and rider are subject to AoO from the movement they are making.

Note also that you must charge to use Ride-By Attack. Among other things, this means that the rider gets an attack bonus and deals double damage with a lance. Unless the mount has some ability to charge, attack and continue charging (and I am not aware of any in the core rules), you cannot combine Ride-By Attack with Fly-By Attack.

 

[Artoomis]

Note also that you must charge to use Ride-By Attack. Among other things, this means that the rider gets an attack bonus and deals double damage with a lance. Unless the mount has some ability to charge, attack and continue charging (and I am not aware of any in the core rules), you cannot combine Ride-By Attack with Fly-By Attack.

Correct, you cannot COMBINE them. You may, however, use Fly-By Attack if the mount has the feat OR Ride-By Attack if the Paladin picks up the feat.

Ride-By is clearly superior is the circumstances allow it as it delivers charge damage AND avoids an AoO. Fly-By is great for when you cannot use Ride-By.

To make this really clearr, you can have both Ride-By Attack and Fly-By Attack available as combat options but cannot combine them into a single manuever that lets you use Fly-By Attack without provoking a movement-based AoO.

 

[kjenks]

Have you read the FAQ entry on this very topic?

 

[Artoomis]

Have you read the FAQ entry on this very topic?

Suppose you have a flying mount: a griffon. What do you have to do to use the ride-by tactic in the air or in swooping down on a target? Do you need to take the Flyby
Attack feat? Or does the Ride-By Attack feat cover flying mounts as well? For the mount to make a single attack when riding or flying by, does it also need to somehow gain
a feat? If so, which one?

If the example rider wants to make attacks while flying by foes, she needs the Ride-By Attack feat and needs to charge (and fly) in a straight line (see the next question). For the
mount to attack in the same situation, it would need the Flyby Attack feat. The rider’s Ride-By Attack feat won’t help the mount attack, and the mount’s Flyby Attack feat does not help
the rider attack.

Note that you have to have a fly speed to take the Flyby Attack feat. If you merely ride a flying mount, you don’t meet the prerequisite for the feat. If you can meet the prerequisite, your flying mount still doesn’t benefit from your Flyby Attack feat (although it’s possible that a feat or class feature might allow you to share the feat).

The FAQ entry is not quite right. "...the mount’s Flyby Attack feat does not help
the rider attack..." You could indeed attack using a readied action and Fly-by Attack per the rules, but I think that's the only way and so you lose an potential move action each round to do this. (Normally, of course, you could do a move action AND an attack.) It does take a readied action to do this and I guess that was not considered in the FAQ entry. It is also possible you could not get a chance to attack the first round if your initiative is worse than your mounts and he decides to attack without you command to do so (an unlikely scenario, hopefully).

Most of the time your mount and you will have the same intiative, but some DM's might give an intelligent mount its own initiative.