Ring of Invisibility Question

[Tovec]

There's a good chance that if the wizard casts Detect Magic on you (spellcraft modifier of +7 at 1st level, success on a 9 or higher, assuming no other bonuses are in play), he knows that it's an illusion spell emanating from your head. In other words, that the hat you are wearing is disguising you. (And that's not even mentioning True Seeing, Arcane Sight or Greater Arcane Sight.)

Ignoring, for now, spells that completely bypass illusions in the first place, yes I agree that detect magic can get you part way there. It does not identify the hat of disguise for what it is. Beyond that..

Even if they don't know what the spell is, if someone's suspicious, the fact that you have a spell effect emanating from your head, combined with the fact that Hats of Disguise are known to exist, might cause the suspicious party to ask you to remove your hat/thing on your head.

The problem I have with this assertion is that you start with 'if someone is suspicious' then you take action. I agree but at that point you could just ask them to remove their hat. The spell doesn't advance you any further. You have to be suspicious of the guy in the hat in the first place, have to spend three rounds studying him to figure out that he is is magical, that it is the hat is the source, that the type of magic is illusion. That is a problem for me. Hats of disguise are known to exist? Okay, tell EVERYONE you meet to remove their hats before you start a conversation - defeats the purpose of the hat of disguise. This also doesn't validate detect magic as a cure to the problem.

Wearing heavy armor generates noise that can be noticed with passive listen checks. But it also works in reverse -- if you have a cloak on your disguise, or a dress, but aren't wearing either, there will be an absence of swishing sounds.

Right, but as I said last time, most times people are using hats of disguise they don't seem to be doing it to change everything about themselves. Sometimes, certainly, it could happen. But by in large I find that most people use the hat to simply change their faces, maybe slightly alter their clothes but in no cases do I find they are realistically trying to portray themselves as a fighter instead of a wizard, or vice versa, using a hat of disguise.
Either way, I don't think "Listen" is a very good way to defeat the illusion. Sounds like the worst justification for "interaction" I've heard in a long time.

Spot and listen checks are not foolproof ways of seeing through an illusion, but they can.

And I continually agree with spot - since hats of disguise give you a +10 bonus to disguise checks. The problem then lies in making the DC. The average (non-optimized) person vs. the average trained person with a +10 bonus isn't going to make that check. And I add on "trained" onto the disguised person since I find that most of the time it is the rogue or similarly trained character wearing the hat - not the party fighter who has zero ranks. But even a trained person vs. trained person with hat is going to have to do 10 better than normal.

Do you think that refraining from physical contact (handshakes in western cultures are very common) might be perceived as a little strange or suspicious?

NO. As I said, I refrain from physical contact except with people I know well. I rarely give handshakes, except at times when I would be expected to by social custom and even then I avoid them when possible. I rarely give high-fives, hugs, kisses on the cheek, or so on. When I hand over money I might drop it into somebody's hand, or place it on the counter, when giving them a card I hold one end and they grab the other. All of these things mean that my contact with others is either non-existent or very limited. No matter what, I don't think the average person who is not already suspicious is going to notice that I am portraying myself as a different race based on the micro-second their flesh comes in contact with mine. This also assumes that I'm disguising my hand. I don't see why that is always true - why I said last time that the only time I can realistically expect them to encounter a illusion on my face is if they're touching my face. And at that point THEY are the suspicious one, or at least the strange one.

What? If you change your race, you're definitely changing the rest of your body -- or do you want to be some sort of elf with the burly forearms of a lumberjack/calloused fingers of a martial artist/something else rather incongruous? And if you just change your face, that still doesn't prevent someone from studying/inspecting your face to disbelieve the illusion.

I'm saying that if I change my race and appear leaner (human becoming an elf), or change my face to another human, that doesn't automatically mean that my hand goes from being "manly" to waif-like. I am a 6'2" man and I have damn near the same hand-size as my 5'6" mother. She is a different gender and different height/wight and yet our hands are the same basic size. Now hers are much smoother, but my hands have never been smooth (not even when I was a baby) so if I somehow could portray myself as my mother I don't expect people to automatically know I am not her based solely on a handshake! Not unless they have spent a good deal of time or somehow memorized her hands. The average person that has met her might just think that her hands are rough but not realize that they weren't last time they shook hands - I don't usually commit such things to memory without reason.

And once again, if they are spending the time to study me, any part of me, then they are going to be obvious and suspicious. At that point I am alerted. At that point they aren't casually interacting. 9/10 they aren't even going to do this unless they have a damn good reason to suspect someone is up in the first place. To me that means that the hat would be a PERFECT disguise most of the time - when I don't think a 1800gp investment should be quite that effective. It should be good, useful, even helpful, it shouldn't be perfect in nearly all ways that avoid detection.

 

[Greenfield]

The Ring say you "gain the benefit of Invisibility", not the spell itself. It says that this takes place while the ring is activated. If they had meant to include the duration of the spell they would have worded it differently.

The Hat says that you can "alter her appearance, as with the Disguise Self spell". Again, it describes an effect, but doesn't specify the use of the spell. No duration implied or specified.

As a side note, a person using the hat may not appear to be wearing one. They can make it look like a headbeand, comb, earring, etc. Anything that would be worn in the "head slot" seems to fit the bill.

I've seen people argue that a duration "makes sense" or is somehow needed to prevent abuse etc., and you're free to house rule your own game any way you like. Based on the wording in the SRD, however, the user of these items doesn't get the spell(s) indicated, just effects that resemble or are based upon them. The contention that they have a duration isn't in the RAW, as far as I can tell.

Is there an errata on either of these items?

As far as seeing through the Hat is concerned, you're presumed to be "Taking 10" on your Disguise most of the time. The Hat gives a +10 to this. Casual observation is done with the -5 "Distracted" penalty, whether it's Spot or Listen. For most people that makes the Hat pretty solid.

Until, that is, someone hands you something, or your voice comes from the wrong place (The Hat, like the spell, can change your apparent height by up to a foot), or they bump against you and your "commoner's outfit" feels like half-plate. Spen any amount of time around someone and they'll get a real roll.

The best way I ever got away with the Hat was when my character was introduced as some sort of semi-controlled shape shifter. The team's main caster wanted to do a scan of me, so I "shifted to Human" and made a show out of taking off my hat, straightening my hair and posing, as if for a picture. The Hat went into my pack, which was a Haversack, and so already detected as magical.

He detected some magical gear about the character, but no over all spell affecting him. And, as with many PCs, once they check you out with the Detect spells, they never bother to check again, so... I give thanks for a good Bluff check.

 

[Grogg of the North]

*Re-reads the items and spells*

Okay, I've always ruled it as the ring makes you invisible until you'd otherwise lose the effects, such as attacking. I've also ruled that the hat alters your appearance until you say otherwise.

Does having to reactivate the items make sense? Eh ... I don't think so. If the magic item is usable at will, then forcing the player to constantly reactivate it seems like the DM is trying to play Gotcha. Chances are even if you the player forgets your character wouldn't. And that would just lead into DM vs Player bickering and players going over every turn like it's a chess match, trying to find the best use of all their actions. Besides, if your wizard can extend/persist the spell why screw over the fighter by having to renew the duration on his invisibilty/disguise?

If you did have to reactivate the ring every 3 minutes, I wouldn't call for anything special. I say it would just be handled by whatever move silently check your sneaking rogue was making anyway. Throw a -2 on that check if you are really feeling "evil".

 

[Dandu]

To me that means that the hat would be a PERFECT disguise most of the time - when I don't think a 1800gp investment should be quite that effective. It should be good, useful, even helpful, it shouldn't be perfect in nearly all ways that avoid detection.

And how does having someone reactivate the item periodically address that issue?

 

[Vegepygmy]

To me, the difference is in the wording. It doesn't say "Gains use of the Invisibility spell", it says "gains the benefits of Invisibility, as the spell."

What's your take, and why?

To me, "as the spell" means it works like the spell, including duration. But when I DM, I just assume that characters are continually reactivating such items as needed, so there's no need to track it.

 

[Greenfield]

Ah. To me "Grants the wearer use of the spell" means use of the spell, including duration, casting time, etc.. "Gains benefits of the spell" could mean the same, subject to interpretation. "Gains benefits of <condition x>, as the spell <spell x>" means what it says: Benefits, but not the spell itself. Meaning, no casting time, no duration limits, etc.

In the case of the Ring, it refers to the spell as a shortcut to a definition of the Invisibility condition, and the fact that it's dispelled if the user attacks anyone. If it grants actual use of the spell, with all the limits, then it should also grant the advantages: You should be able to make someone or something else Invisible, just like the spell. That way, one ring benefits the entire party!

<Tangent>Ever tried using Invisibility on a door in a dungeon? You get to look through to the other side without triggering any traps, and if there's an opponent on the other side they waste their first series of attacks on the invisible barrier between you. </Tangent>

Tell me, in your games, does a Ring of Three Wishes cost 5000 Exp to use each wish? After all, if it's a Ring that emulates a spell, doesn't it copy the spell in other ways?

As far as the Hat giving a lot for an 1,800 gp price: That price is *exactly* correct, per the formula in the book: Spell level (1) x Caster Leve (1) x 1,800 (command activated) for unlimited use. It's like the dictionary definition of how items are priced per formula. If the Hat's overpowered, so is the spell. (It also probably means that you aren't playing it very well.)

 

[Dandu]

(It also probably means that you aren't playing it very well.)

Let's be fair, games in which the population is composed of haphephobes aren't implausible given that most settings emulate the period in human history known to have borne witness to the plague.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Tell me, in your games, does a Ring of Three Wishes cost 5000 Exp to use each wish?

Yes...and that cost is paid when the ring is forged.

After all, if it's a Ring that emulates a spell, doesn't it copy the spell in other ways?

Yes, but you picked a bad example, because a ring of three wishes doesn't emulate a wish spell, the item description states that it actually stores wish spells. But that's just nitpicking, IMO.