River travel.

[Darklance]

I don't know the first thing abour river travel but I am going to be using it in my game so I'd apreciate any help you could give me.

1. Using bronze age/medieval sailing tech would it be effiecent to sail or row against the flow of a river?

2. If it is not, how would the boats get back to the start destination? Hauled overland? Sailed into the ocean? I might remember something like this from the misisippie river.

3. Is the build of a river ship different than and ocean ship?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Tsyr]

I'm not a huge expert on naval matters, but I do remember this tidbit from american history...

During the westward expansion-type period of America, around the time Railroads started poping up, on the Mississippi, boats were sometimes constructed very simply of basicly raw lumber, then torn apart and the wood used for construction when it reached its destination.

 

[Dalenthas]

>>1. Using bronze age/medieval sailing tech would it be effiecent to sail or row against the flow of a river?

Depends on the speed of the current. If its a relativly slow river it should be easy to row against, otherwise you'll end up going backwards anyway. Take the Speed of the current and add it to the speed of a boat going downstreem, or subtract it from the speed of a boat going upstream. Thus a rowboat that can move 30ft per round in calm water can move up a river thats current does not exceed 29ft/round. The boat would move 1 ft per round though and it'd be easier to carry it overland . If the same boat were going downstream in the same river, it could go 59 ft in a single round, or if you don't paddle at all it'll go 29 feet downstream anyway.

>>2. If it is not, how would the boats get back to the start destination? Hauled overland? Sailed into the ocean? I might remember something like this from the misisippie river.

Hauled overland, or pulled using horses/oxen/whatever that are onland but leaving the boat in the water.

>>3. Is the build of a river ship different than and ocean ship?

Depends on the depth/with of the river. Most river boats don't go very deep under water though, and few ocean ships can go far up a river without running aground (unless its a wide and deep river.

NOTE: No matter how intelligent you think that reply was, if someone contradicts it trust them (unless they sound even MORE like an idiot). I'm not an expert on river boating, hell, I've never been in a boat on a river before...

 

[Mr. Grimm]

Most ocean vessels will not go very far along on a river because they need to draw too much water. Most ships made for travelling the ocean had to be relatively large because the construction had to withstand pounding surf, storms and such. Sails made travelling by sea possible but having a sail meant a potentiall top heavy boat and a boat that had to be made to roll (rounded hull) with the wind and waves.

River travel (esp cargo) is almost always done with boats that don't have much water displacement, meaning a flat-bottomed boat. Think barges, rafts, or even paddle boats.

Those larger (river) boats that managed to do a little bit of river travel in larger river systems were relatively smaller (ocean) craft that had the ability to be rowed with a large number of men as well as sailed. They didn't carry excessive amounts of cargo, didn't have much cover from the elements and were long and narrow, or a catamaran style. Think vikings or various peoples in the South Pacific.

Hope this helps a little.

 

[Dagger75]

Also remeber most rivers flow into the ocean*. The Nile river is kind of unique river, the current of the river went into the Mediteranian Sea, but the winds went the other way, inland. They would row there boats downriver and sail them upriver. You could throw that in the game world if you like.

Before steam engines, the river boats on the Mississippi River ;the barges, they had would only go down river. They would tear apart the boats for the wood at the end of the journey. I saw on a show (probably history channel) that for slow rivers they would leave the boat in the river and tie it to horses and pull it back upstream. Other people had metioned both of these earlier so I just repeated them.

*One of my first attempts at DMing a long time ago had a boat trip TO the mountians. I had made the river flowing the wrong way.

 

[The Oracle]

Ocean vessels had a keel to help keep them from falling over in high winds. River boats don't need that. Galleys (rowed boats) can only be in the water while being rowed, and therefore they were beached every night and the group would camp out. Night navigation is not usually done on rivers, meaning very little night traffic, and lots of tieing off to trees and whatnot until morning.

Check out Sea of Blood
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/seas_of_blood.htm

Or Seafarer's Handbook
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ll.html

They both have lots of stuff you will like. I have them both and use them.

 

[Hatchling Dragon]

Where is this route for shipping? Is it oft-used, or are the PC's going to be heading into the wilds between civilizations (ie: the city-states)?

I'd never heard of that 'broken up for the lumber' method of boat handling. Makes sense with the down-river towns probably in constant need of timber/lumber.

Oxen are what I thought were the most common towing animal. Those animals (if I'm not mistaken) will pull quite a load all stinking day. Carry a couple of them on the barge with you and you'll be home a few days after you've unloaded your cargo.

What is the magic level of your world, and especially the area in question? Would it be possible that Zombies were available for towing? Talk about endless towing power, if you can stand the stink. How about an Elemental or other Outsider to tow/propel the boat, like a Water Elemental to push? Is it possible that the Captain/Crew have Sorcerers or Wizards (even lower level) on board for that very purpose.

The more we know about your world, and more importantly the area you're asking for help with, the better we'll be able to answer questions.

Hatchling Dragon

PS: Heh, signing my name brought up an idea... an enslaved Dragon, young of course, and best-off a water-breather. When it's too big/dangerous for towing duty (after decades of work) it's off to an Arena and probable death (or it could be 'hired' if Good). And it's a great help defending the boat against raiders.

 

[Maldur]

Towing boats around by a horse on the riverside was quite common in Holland, but they could also be towed by several strong men , several rivers and canal still have paths along the water for this practice (unused but the path is still there).

Rowing, slow sailing and maybe even paddlewheels can be used depending on the techlevel.

Riverboats tend to be shallow draught, flatbottom boats. Lake boats, (frysian/dutch) would be flatbottom sailing boats, with "swords" along both sides (large keel-like boards, which could be lowered to provide stability when sailing).

Also when using a wide, overspilling river (like the missisipi) dont forget flotsam and other hazards. In more narrow, rivers, you can use rapids, overhanging rocks etc as natural obstacles. But manmade obstacles (tollbooths with warmachines) can be used too. The rhine has several of these "toll-booths" featuring castle's build in the centre of the river, or castle's build on both sides of the river with a chain between them.

A river could be a small community of traders, custom- and river patrols, fishermen, etc.

By determining what cargoes should be transported you cuold determine the size of the boats.

 

[Hand of Evil]

River travel can be different from river to river but a lot of cultures grew up on them.

Answer to your first question is yes, in most cases very easily. If wide enough even sail up them. The biggest problems were objects and seasonal flooding.

Navagation up and down a river was only slower going up them, fighting the current, the best thing to do here is say tarvel up a river (unless it is deep and slow) takes twice as long going up than down.

Now don't forget the power of cannels! These can be used where the river become too shallow or at rapids to level out waterways. A lot of data has shown that Central and South America indians (Stone age) had very complex channel systems.

Riverboats for the most part are flat bottom boats, this makes it easier to travel over rooks, sandbars, rocks and move in shallower waters. Ocean going boats use a keal to keep from tipping over.