Rogue Design goals . L&L May 7th

[Minigiant]

I've got no problem with the rogue gaining an advantage while flanking.

I just don't think it should be as big of an advantage as when attacking from stealth.

They should make backstab and sneak attack two separate things.

Sneak Attack: Whenever a rogue strikes an enemy that did not see him for one entire round, he or she deals 1d6 extra damage. This damage increases by blah blah. Blah blah is immune to critical hits blah blah.

Backstab: A rogue deals bonus damage equal to his rogue level to anyone he or she flanks with a ally.

 

[BobTheNob]

I think that if the designers do not draw some lines about supported styles then the game will be an abysmal failure.

If there are classes designed and clearly labeled as "strongest" in combat then players have no rightful beef when they avoid those classes and are not then strong in combat.

At some point of departure from the class system it's just time to say "D&D is the wrong game for me." There are many good systems that let you build exactly the character you want. D&D has never been that game and the more WoTC has tried to make it massively customizable over the years the more they have fractured the community.

I just didnt want to weigh into this debate yet again, but I have to agree.

The old "everyone should be perfectly feasible" in and out of combat debate, well, been there, played that, didnt like it. Im not going to argue a point (just to avoid endless debate), Im just going to state personnel preference. I didnt like the effect it had on the game when everyone contributed to everything. I quote from "The Incredibles" : "Then when everyone is super....no one will be"

I dont mind if players are not combat dynamo's, as long as combat is taking 1/2 hour to resolve, not 2 hours.

 

[Thalionalfirin]

You get your normal number of attacks per round per surprise segment, so, if you are lucky and roll a 6, and the bad guy rolls a 1, that's 5 surprise segments. Assuming twf, that's 10 backstabs. With a 17 dex, he has no penalty to his main weapon and only -2 to the offhand, with the +4 from behind, so even with a poorer dex, he's probably using twf. That's 10 backstabs. And that's before initiative is rolled. Assuming longsword and dagger, that's a potential 10d8+10d4. 120 damage max with no strength modifiers. There's your one shot, one kill. At first level.

I don't believe that's how surprise works.

Normally, characters are surprised on a roll of 1 or 2. The number of segments a party is surprised for is represented by the number rolled. For example, if the bad guy rolls a 2, he is surprised for 2 rounds. If the bad guy rolls a 1, he's surprised for 1 round.

It's almost impossible to surprise a bad guy for 5 segments. Elves and halflings traveling alone and in non-metal armor can surprise on a 1-4, but that's about it.

Note also that encounter distance for surprise starts at range. 5" - 10" indoors and 6" - 24" outdoors. You never start at backstab distance in the beginning of surprise.

It also takes surprise segments to move. You can move 1' per 1" of movement rate in a segment so it would take at least one surprise segment to move into a backstab position.

Finally, while it is true that you can take a full round of melee attacks each segment of surprise, it is debatable whether dual wielding grants backstab status for both attacks. Unless I'm mistaken, neither the PH nor the DMG rules one way or the other and thus is left up to the DM.

I've played both ways. As a longtime player of the thief, of course I prefer being allowed to backstab with both weapons, but I am always prepared to play using a single attack for backstab.

Theoretically, I can see 3 backstabs (or 6 if you're allowed dual wielding backstab) if you're playing an elf or halfling thief, but the star would have to line up perfectly.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Not sure what this proves, since the fighter can presumably do about as well with a solid Strength bonus.

Really? First off, how does he surprise in metal armor? 2nd, assuming 18 (00) strength, and he does gain surprise, he can do 5d10+30, or 80 damage max with a two handed sword. If he somehow has a high strength AND dex, he can do 5d8+45 +5d6+45 or a max of 160 (assuming +3 weapons). Or about half as much as the thief. Assuming he has a high dex and strength. And assuming he gains surprise. And if the fighter can have high strength and dex and 2 plus 3 weapons, so can the thief, so we have to add 45 to the thief's total possible damage.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I don't believe that's how surprise works.
Normally, characters are surprised on a roll of 1 or 2. The number of segments a party is surprised for is represented by the number rolled. For example, if the bad guy rolls a 2, he is surprised for 2 rounds. If the bad guy rolls a 1, he's surprised for 1 round.

No. You subtract the difference in the rolls. To be surprised at all, the bad guy - absent special circumstances - has to roll a 1 or 2. To not also be surprised, the thief has to roll a 3 or above. If he rolls a 6 and the bad guy rolls a one, that's 5 segments.

It's almost impossible to surprise a bad guy for 5 segments. Elves and halflings traveling alone and in non-metal armor can surprise on a 1-4, but that's about it.

\Actually, they surprise at 90% or 9/10.

Note also that encounter distance for surprise starts at range. 5" - 10" indoors and 6" - 24" outdoors. You never start at backstab distance in the beginning of surprise.

Not always. A thief hiding behind a door can surprise when the bad guy walks through the door.

It also takes surprise segments to move. You can move 1' per 1" of movement rate in a segment so it would take at least one surprise segment to move into a backstab position.

Not always. A good thief sets up situations to his advantage.

Finally, while it is true that you can take a full round of melee attacks each segment of surprise, it is debatable whether dual wielding grants backstab status for both attacks. Unless I'm mistaken, neither the PH nor the DMG rules one way or the other and thus is left up to the DM.

1e DMG, p. 62.

Because the party surprised is (relatively) inactive, the surprising party will be able to attempt telling blows during each segment of surprise as if the segment were an entire round! That is, a fighter able to attack twice during a normal round of combat will be able to do so twice during each surprise segment.

This is pretty self explanatory. It doesn't specifically say you can dual wield during a surprise round. But it doesn't specifically say humans can attack in a surprise round either. Or dwarves. Or women. Does that mean they can't?

Theoretically, I can see 3 backstabs (or 6 if you're allowed dual wielding backstab) if you're playing an elf or halfling thief, but the star would have to line up perfectly.

The table in the DMs guide look's like this:

Surprise Dice Difference Lost Segments

0 .............................................................. 0
1 (2-1,3-2, etc) .......................................... 1
2 (3-1, 4-2, etc) ......................................... 2
3 (4-1,5-2,etc) ........................................... 3


Note, there is no 6 in the table, even though it is a possible result. I take that to mean the table should be extrapolated to 6-2, 6-1, etc. But even so, 3 lost segments is still a crapload of damage. That's what makes a thief such a badass. He was never intended to engage in a straight up fight. He opens the fight and takes one bad guy completely out, or SEVERELY injures the boss. Then he just help out as he can. He's probably made himself a target, so withdrawing is probably a pretty good idea.

And that's what the 5e rogue should look like. The sneaky guy who can climb, find and remove traps, pick locks/pockets, decipher languages, be the scout that takes out the guard, and able to hold his own in a general melee.

 

[Cadfan]

One of the following is true:

1. These designers are incompetent.
2. Combat is no longer expected to occupy a plurality of minutes of game time, and individual combats are expected to be brief.
3. These articles are just advertising, and mean nothing.

I'm fairly certain (1) is false. But (2) seems unlikely as well. So I guess that leaves (3).

 

[john112364]

Actually, Mearls is quite clear. He may be misspeaking but he is quite clear


They can't master everything, but they can master any mundane skill and be better than any other character. Regardless of the skill.

Good point. I still hope they narrow the rogue's focus to rogue related skills. Certain skills should only be truly mastered by their respective niches i.e. arcana for wizards, religion for cleric, nature for druid, etc.
Time will tell.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

I'm not saying the rogue should suck in combat--just that it's okay if the rogue is not as good as the fighter. If the rogue is worth, say, 80% of a fighter of the same level, I think that's reasonable, especially if the rogue can also do things like silently kill lone sentries.

I can live with that, if the fighter is 80% as good as the rogue at skills and being stealthy.

 

[Remathilis]

This is per 2nd edition rules. Per 1st edition, only A, and partially D apply.

I started with Basic/RC and moved onto 2nd edition. Never actually played 1e, it was ancient history in 1993.

That said, you ARE wrong; C is equally in effect (check page 19 of your DMG).

He can use any melee weapon normally allowed to thieves. Any thief worth his salt doesn't rely on his hide and move silently skills to backstab unless he's fairly high level. He used the surprise rules. Our 15th level thief will be doing 8-43 damage per attack and he may have up to 5 of them. He will also likely be dual wielding, since he can't use a shield or a two handed weapon, and he's likely to have a high dex or he wouldn't bother being a thief. So that's an additional 1-4 per attack. And a total of up to 10 attacks, assuming maximum surprise results. Even with a non-magical dagger, that's a possible 375 points of damage and will kill any creature in the multiverse, assuming hits with all attacks, which is likely, considering he will hit ac 0 on a 7 or better. He can do 120 damage at FIRST LEVEL. Of course, the above is assuming optimal conditions and rolls, but even at middling level, a party can do a lot to hedge the thieves bet. Invisibility, disguise, silence spells, etc. There is a ton of ways to set up an ambush by the thief and a smart party will help all they can. With a bit of planning and luck, a well-played thief can end an encounter before it starts.

You are assuming a LOT of rolls going in the Thieves favor. Your example assumes a max roll on your foe's surprise (while you min roll yourself) and hitting with 10 attacks(!) via a corner case in the initiative/segment rules in 1e which doesn't appear in Basic, B/X, or 2nd Edition.

I can build a stunlock wizard in 4e that breaks the save system. I can make a rogue in 3e that can deal 50+ d6s. I saw a psychic warrior who can did 260 damage with a heavy pick on crit. These are abominations to the system the same as your 10 attack thief was. Munckinism didn't begin in 2000...

I hate to keep bringing this up, but it seems there are a ton of people here who complain about how weak the thief is who are ignorant to the rules of 1e AD&D.

I hate to keep bringing this up, but it seems there are a ton of people who can abuse the ruleset to create effects that I'm sure wasn't intended and never appeared before or after it again. Then again, and initiative system that needs its own supplemental book to explain is probably rife for abuse.

 

[I'm A Banana]

2. Combat is no longer expected to occupy a plurality of minutes of game time, and individual combats are expected to be brief.

Given all the talk about pillars and adventure-based design and all that, I don't know why you think this is unlikely. Indeed, I think this IS the reason rogues don't need to excel as much as fighters at combat: combat isn't what the game is basically about.