Rogue: Dex 8

[candidus_cogitens]

If you want my off-the-cuff opinion, I'd say Sense Motive and Bluff would not be allowed while raging. It takes a full minute, at least, to use Sense Motive for most purposes. However, if all you want to do is discern a feint, I'd say it should be allowed to use it, though perhaps with a penalty. (It would be unbalancing to not even allow a chance to detect a feint, although it makes sense that it would be easier to feint against a raging barbarian.) For Bluff, I'd say feinting would not be allowed, by analogy with Expertise.

 

[bensei]

I would allow bluff for feints, sense motive for feints, and sense motive generally, but probably penalties.

Performing feints (and also detecting them) is more a combat maneuver, so a barbarian who uses them often could certainly do them instictively while raging, perhaps not as perfect, but he will look terrifying enough, such that foes will fall for his feints.

If you get into rage outside of battle (if you role-play your character this can happen), you will still be able to judge others behaviour, although with a penalty. E.g. when you get into rage and try to throw a man, who didn't show respect, out of the bar, you will certainly not attack everyone else just standing around.

Trying to convincing someone of something untrue with words (bluff) is something you will not do when raging anyway.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

Performing feints (and also detecting them) is more a combat maneuver, so a barbarian who uses them often could certainly do them instictively while raging, perhaps not as perfect, but he will look terrifying enough, such that foes will fall for his feints.

But isn't feinting kinda similar to using Expertise? I think they are about equally difficult, and equally easy to do. Not every big brute knows how to feint--brutes don't tend to be that subtle.

Remember the scene where Drizzt is training Wulfgar. (Not that this carries any authority, but it illustrates the idea . . .) One of the major things that Wulfgar had to learn was not to just go in swinging with a full-strength swing, because you open yourself up to counter-attacks and you're too easy to dodge. Wulfgar, as a barbarian, is more naturally accustomed to relying on brute force. But Drizzt is more of a smart, subtle kind of tactician, i.e. he uses feints and defensive expertise.

That's why I would be reluctant to allow feinting by a raging barbarian. I guess if a player in my group really wanted to do it though, I wouldn't forbid it. In the end, it's probably not a very good strategy for a barbarian anyway.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

(there is a feat somewhere which makes fainting [sic] a free(?) action, I do not know about any Dex-prereqs).

I'd like to know where to find that feat. My first reaction is that it is over-powered. If there is such a feat, please tell me it carries some kind of penalty to the attack roll. Getting an automatic chance to eliminate your adversary's dex bonus is just too much!

 

[bensei]

Not every big brute knows how to feint

Right. Only brutes with some bluff value. Everyone can try though.
And feinting goes against sense motive, so brute against brute will have a 50%/50% chance. Certainly not enough to use it effectively...

 

[Quip]

Been looking into it, and it seems theres a couple points that haven't been made:

The skills that are stated as being unavailable to a raging barbarian are craft, handle animal, and intuit direction. Besides not having direct combat applications, another thing these have in common is the length of time needed to use them. Even the quickest of these, intuit direction, takes a minimum of 1 minute to use. So it could be that "patience and concentration" just means skills that take a while to perform. So that rules out the normal applications of bluff and sense motive, but not in regards to feints.

The Gladiator from Sword and Fist is very much a barbarian-esque PrC, which also happens to have a bluff as a class skill. Not only that, but the first ability you get is improved feint, which is described as "sneaky tactics such as kicking dirt in a foes face". Its not evidence per se, but its alot easier to imagine a feinting barbarian acting in such a way.

As for applying a penalty to skills while raging, note that raging in no way impairs their ability to notice that the flowers are in bloom (Wilderness Lore).

"You... just stepped... on my... PETUNIAS! DIE!!!"

 

[bensei]

candidus_cogitens wrote:
I'd like to know where to find that feat.

I think in Song and Silence. It's fainting as a move equivalent action and has a really high Dex requirement (something about Dex 19+).

 

[Saeviomagy]

The ability is called quicker than the eye, and is much better than just bluffing in combat.

It's a bluff check opposed by a spot check as a move-equivalent action, and if you win, the target looks away (and loses his dex bonus) as you take your partial action. Hence you can use it for hiding, palming objects and also stabbing people.

cogitens - the only applications for sense motive which take a minute are those which are aimed at determining the trustworthiness of someone, or discovering whether they are affected by an enchantment of some kind. Note that opposing a bluff is mentioned under bluff, not sense motive, and a bluff ALWAYS goes against a sense motive. I cannot honestly see rage stopping this.

Nor can I see rage destroying the ability to feint in combat. It's fairly obvious that the only combat options really denied to a raging individual are those which are defensive in nature, something that feinting certainly is not.