Rogue is too sneaky

[WampusCat43]

One of my players has created an ultimate sneaky rogue - a 10th level halfling shadowdancer with every synergy bonus and magic item he could afford, giving him Hide and Move Silently numbers in the 30s. He has no magic weapons and a strength penalty, so his attack shtick consists of hiding in the shadows within 30' and sneak attacking for lots of bonus damage.

How far can this be taken? Last week, in his debut, he wore out the leader of a band of raiders (who was hiding in the woods). He'd plunk him, then move 15' or so away, leaving the BBG unable to find him. Repeat ad nauseum. I kept giving the BBG circumstance bonuses on his Spot rolls, concealment and cover bonuses, and forced the player to make his own Spot rolls each time. Didn't help.

I realize certain monsters (like those with DR) are going to be a problem for him, but I'm looking for a ruling on surprise. Should he be allowed a sneak attack every round he isn't spotted? The rules use the term 'aware' of opponents. The BBG definitely was aware that someone was drilling pebbles into his skull, but should that negate a surprise attack from an effectively invisible opponent?

TIA, will answer yours.

 

[nittanytbone]

Sniping (per SRD):

"If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot."

As soon as you make the attack, I'd think that you'd be under direct observation unless (A) you use the sniping rule to immediately rehide or (B) manage to get hard cover or 100% concealment between you and your foe so that you can hide again.

Sniping:
Standard Action - Fire one shot
Move Action - Hide in same position at -20 sniping penalty

OR

Using Cover to Hide In Between Attacks:
Round 1:
Standard Action - Fire one shot
Move Action - Move behind hard cover or 100% concealment
Round 2:
Move Action - Move out from behind the hard cover, hiding
Standard Action - Fire one shot

Rogue is now "out in the open" and available for retaliation

Round 3:
Standard Action - Fire one shot
Move Action - Move behind hard cover or 100% concealment...


How to counter this?

*Lots of enemies are immune to sneak attack. So vs. undead, elementals, anything with DR, etc, the rogue will be screwed.
*How does the rogue see? Unless he has darkvision, he needs to have some sort of light source in total darkness, which screws him over -- hard to hide when you're carrying a torch or lantern.
*Rogue Can't Full Attack. He's only getting one attack, which greatly reduces damage output.
*Defensive Countermeasures by Targets: Anyone being sneak attacked should immediately find concealment. Rogues cannot sneak attack anyone with a miss chance. So, moving into an area of partial illumination (20% miss chance), uncorking a Smokestick (20% miss chance, or total concealment through the cloud), using an Obscuring Mist Spell, dropping prone and claiming cover from a log or low wall, etc. are all good countermeasures that negate sneak attack.
*Offensive Countermeasures by Targets: The rogue's weakness is that his mobility is extremely limited. To be pulling this shtick he must be within 20' of hard cover. In a forest, that's easy (trees), but in many other terrains, it is more difficult, and the rogue is easier to find. The bandit leader could fan out his forces to flush the rogue out of the woods -- although this makes them vulnerable to being destroyed in detail by meleers. As soon as the rogue is sighted, he should be tripped or put into a grapple so that he can't run away. Remember, you can do so as an AoO (although he likely has tumble, so getting away is fairly easy). Area of Effect spells work well too -- throw a fireball in the general direction you think the rogue is and see what happens. A cheaper option is just setting a brush fire or using Alchemist's Fire to flush him out (and the smoke gives you concealment, too).

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.

If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Hide checks.

A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17thlevel ranger can do this even while being observed.

There's Hide...

Basically, he's probably going to be taking -20 to his hide checks after sniping begins. Bringing him down into a much saner range of spot checks.

It takes him a move action to rehide after an attack. Regardless of whether he moves or snipes. So a single attack only. Hide in plain sight just removes the need for cover to hide in.


By the sounds of it, he's built his character around this one trick.

Given the strength penalty, loss of sneak attack for taking Shadowdancer level(s) and the limit of 1 attack per round - he's hardly going to be making a big impact on combat - certainly nothing like as much damage as a fighter will deal.

Only time he's really dangerous is when he's by himself, fighting sneak attack prone opponents who have no spot skill. Why not let his trick work on those rare occasions?

If I was the bandit chief, I'd have probably hidden in some cover. Had my men 'beat' the area for the attacker. Failing that, ride away at high speed. Hide indoors. Hire someone!

 

[Sejs]

By the sounds of it, he's built his character around this one trick.

Yep. And the first time someone casts Faerie Fire on him it's going to really ruin his day.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Glitterdust too.

 

[lukelightning]

Sneaking around in D&D is pretty difficult, unless you're just trying to avoid other standard PC races. Most monsters have scent.

 

[diaglo]

Sneaking around in D&D is pretty difficult, unless you're just trying to avoid other standard PC races. Most monsters have scent.

and some even have blindsense or tremorsense or other abilities.

 

[pallandrome]

indeed, I'm of the opinion that sneaky characters should be allowed to be so, because the amount of specialization it requires limits them in SO MANY other areas.

Besides, if your big bad evil bandit king has any smarts, he'll run away and invest in some fortified armor. Major fortification negates crits, so wouldn't it negate sneak attack damage too?

 

[Sejs]

Besides, if your big bad evil bandit king has any smarts, he'll run away and invest in some fortified armor. Major fortification negates crits, so wouldn't it negate sneak attack damage too?

Yep, indeed it does.

An assassin's death attack, too. A pair of bracers of armor with fortification are a damn solid investment for anyone that has to deal with the threat of assassination, such as royalty, for just such a reason.

 

[frankthedm]

One of my players has created an ultimate sneaky rogue - a 10th level halfling shadowdancer with every synergy bonus and magic item he could afford, giving him Hide and Move Silently numbers in the 30s. He has no magic weapons and a strength penalty, so his attack shtick consists of hiding in the shadows within 30' and sneak attacking for lots of bonus damage.

How far can this be taken?

Not as far as you think. Catching someone flat footed at the start of combat costs someone their dex bonus. Neither the Hide skill nor the PHB/SRD rules grant being hidden the ability to take away someone's dex bonus. You will find some who argue otherwise. Their only real 'evidence' they have is from a passage in the Complete Adventurer.

Also HIPS is a supernatural ability [sometimes extraordinary]. Unless you decide otherwise, that means it takes a standard action to use, forever preventing attacking while using it.

Even if you do go with the assumption that being hidden is functionally being invisible, the Blind Fight feat will let foes keep their dex bonus in that situation.