Rogue/Paladin - so, when can I Bluff?

[Herobizkit]

Wouldn't that be diplomacy if speaking the truth, and bluff if lying?

It would be, except that Diplomacy takes 10 minutes to accomplish and attempts to turn the NPC's attitude to Friendly, while my Bluff example produces an instant result - a one-time "do this now 'cuz it's better for you if you do" action.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Wouldn't that be diplomacy if speaking the truth, and bluff if lying?

There is a fine line between dipomacy and bluff. If you don't have a code against lieing, you could basically use the bluff skill instead of the diplomacy skill to handle conversation. It is that close. Some DMs wouldn't allow such a thing, but I would, if the PC came up with a lie that sounded like the truth. With the bluff skill you can make the improbable seem true, including the lies you are telling about the truth in your dimplomacy.

Paladins though, couldn't do this.

 

[RangerWickett]

Given the number of house rules everyone has, I'm sure it wouldn't be much of a stretch to have a house ruled variant paladin's code. How well do you know the Scorpion Clan in Legend of the Five Rings?

Let's say, every paladin order has a small group called the Selfless. These holy warriors are more concerned about protecting innocents, stopping evil, and assuring that laws are upheld, rather than about personal honor. They understand that the blunt strength of a typical paladin is wasted if it cannot be applied properly, and believe that lies and deceit are not themselves harmful. The selfless shoulder the burden of being less than perfectly moral so that other paladins can be unimpeachable.

A Selfless still never breaks an oath, but they do not make oaths lightly. They will lie, cheat, and in some cases even steal if in so doing they can both serve the public trust and protect the honor of others. They pray every day for forgiveness, and must always maintain their displeasure in having to do these dishonorable deeds. In a way, their task is nobler, because they don't get to feel all good about themselves the way typical paladins do.

 

[Storminator]

If your DM lets you omit key, vital, relevant pieces of info without violating your oath, you can certainly bluff.

I once played a priest of Bane that was pretending to be a priest of Lathander. Since I was always wary of Detect Lies, I tried to speak the truth as much as possible. Frex, when asked which temple I prayed at, I would answer "I never worship the Morning Lord in the same place twice." Which was certainly true! And yet completely dishonest. Obviously you wouldn't want to emulate a priest of Bane, but the concept holds.

On a more philosophical note, if you and your DM trust each other and work it out, this character would be perfect for a fallen-and-redeemed-paladin character arc. You could be trying your hardest to walk the straight and narrow, and fall short at some point. Then, as a paladin should, just keep trying after the fall and get it back. That sort of play is tricky, and really requires both player and DM to pull off, but it can be quite cool.

PS

 

[Lord Zack]

I'd say lies=falsehood of any kind, for the purposes of the Paladin code. The point of the code is honor, so even if you "merely" equivocate, or say anything else that's false you're violating the spirt of the code.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

First off, thanks for all the excellent advice so far. I'm -quite- familiar with the Scorpion, and they are in fact my DM's favorite clan, so I'll keep that in mind.

On a more philosophical note, if you and your DM trust each other and work it out, this character would be perfect for a fallen-and-redeemed-paladin character arc. You could be trying your hardest to walk the straight and narrow, and fall short at some point. Then, as a paladin should, just keep trying after the fall and get it back. That sort of play is tricky, and really requires both player and DM to pull off, but it can be quite cool.

I can't believe I didn't think of this. The DM and I have been in the same group for 7 years now, I've always wanted to a fall-and-redemption arc, and the Pelorite priest (played by another of our 7-year vets) who 'saved'/converted him is the venerable cleric he's protecting...who better to walk him back into the light?

I'm gonna take that one to the DM, I think. If anybody else wants to toss out some good pre-Fall equivocations, I'll take 'em, of course...

 

[Peni Griffin]

An awful lot of Bluff is just projecting an image; something paladins do every day to inspire confidence in their allies and cow their adversaries. An awful lot of evil is simple cowardice - you don't have confidence enough to use good methods. As a reformed rogue, this guy understands this in his bones. He also understands that 90% of social reality is conviction. Any given mode of government or authority is nothing more than a mass hallucination; somebody who realizes this can manipulate the hallucination. So your rogue-paladin has chosen the paladin code as his hallucination, is aware that he has, and is equally aware that other people can't distinguish between the map and the territory. So he uses that knowledge to inspire confidence, create hope in situations that look hopeless, sow doubt among his foes, and shape reality to his will, which is the will of the god/cause/whatever. Is it a lie to take on insurmountable odds with a grin? Is it deception to declare: "We will be merciful in victory" when you don't know for a fact you'll be victorious?

Play it right and give this guy a high wisdom, and get your DM enthusiastic about it, and you'll have a fine time.

 

[iwatt]

Have you read Jordan's The Wheel of Time series? The Aes Sedai have become masters at making people believe something without lying (they physically can't speak something they believe untrue). There's a quote:

An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth she speaks may not be the truth you think you hear.
-saying concerning sisters of the White Tower​

Li Shenron's examples are very good in this sense.

In any case, constant manipulation of the truth would probably stress the paladin, but I see it more as an roleplaying opportunity to add depth to your character. Besides, it would help against all those Lawfull Stupid namecallers as an example of a Paladin that resolves problems with soemthing else than a charge or displaying his smile and long hair

 

[Particle_Man]

Wouldn't that be diplomacy if speaking the truth, and bluff if lying?

Looked like Intimidate to me.

Complete Scoundrel has the "Grey Guard" paladin prestige class, where the paladin's code becomes progressively more relaxed.

 

[Nifft]

Captain Carrot from the various Terry Pratchett books does an excellent job of being a Bluff-enabled Paladin-type, in my humble opinion.

"If you do not cooperate peacefully, I will be forced to carry out the order I was given before entering your establishment."

It's not going to be quite as flexible as how a regular Rogue could use it, but in my game, you could still get some mileage out.

Cheers, -- N