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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Levistus's_Leviathan" data-source="post: 8789080" data-attributes="member: 7023887">Demonstrably untrue. Here's what Rogues lost:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sneak Attack on a Reaction (which was probably not intended to work in the first place). </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sneak Attack with Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade for any rogue of the right race/feat ability (also absolutely unintended). You can still Sneak Attack with Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade if you have 6 levels in Bladesinger, though.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Longsword proficiency (largely useless anyway)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hand-Crossbow proficiency</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The option to gain Performance proficiency from their class skills (barely a nerf, you can always take it from your background skills)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The ability to use Evasion when incapacitated (which was ridiculous anyway)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Blindsense</li> </ul>They also had a couple features delayed by a level or two (the second Expertise feature was moved from level 6 to level 7, Evasion was moved from level 7 to level 9).Here's what Rogues got in return:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Automatic advantage when using Thieves' Tools at level 1 if you choose Sleight of Hand as one of your proficient skills from the class or a background (boosted up to advantage and Expertise if you choose Expertise in Sleight of Hand)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An extra language at level 1 granted in addition to Thieves' Cant</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An extra feat at level 1 from your background (which other classes also get, but rogues from the 2014 PHB didn't, so it still counts as a buff to rogue characters transitioning from 5e to OneD&D)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Whip Proficiency (which can be dual-wielded)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An extra attack as part of the Attack Action if you dual wield (no longer taking your bonus action, which can be used for Cunning Action, which dual-wielding rogues previously couldn't do)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An extra Subclass feature at level 6 (which is why Expertise and Evasion are delayed a bit)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Earlier subclass features (Their level 13 feature is moved to level 10, their level 17 feature is moved to level 14)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Expertise in more tools, because Tool Checks are now based on skills (this depends on what skills you have proficiency in)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Reliable Talent on more tools, because Tool Checks are now based on skills (this also depends on what skills you have proficiency in)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An extra feature at level 13, which makes it so if an ally is within 5 feet of the creature you're attacking, you will always sneak attack (and be more likely to crit sneak attack because you'll normally have advantage on the attack roll). </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Proficiency with Charisma Saving throws from Slippery Mind (meaning that you'll have 4 saving throw proficiencies automatically, which you can boost to up 5 if you have the Resilient Feat)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Elusive at level 17 instead of level 18</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Stroke of Luck at level 18 instead of level 20</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An automatic Epic Boon at level 20 (which other classes also get, but rogues from the 2014 PHB didn't, so it still counts as a buff to rogue characters transitioning from 5e to OneD&D)</li> </ul>So, that's 7 nerfs, quite a few of which are fairly minor or situational and 14 buffs, quite a few of which are really big (Dual Wielding, an extra feat, buffs to tools, more and earlier subclass features, another saving throw proficiency, so on). By my count, the Rogue class gets twice as many buffs as it gets nerfs. So "Rogues just keep losing things and not getting anything in return" is either a complete and utter lie or you somehow didn't notice any of the many buffs that they got.</blockquote>

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