OneDnD Rogue Playtest Discussion

The main obvious changes are that you get subclass features at levels 3, 6, 10, and 14 rather than 3, 9, 13, and 17 (which has required shuffling around your second expertise and evasion). Blindsense has gone (it's now a subability of a feat) and instead at level 13 you get Subtle Strikes giving you advantage when targeting a foe near an ally.

Thieves have been tweaked - but you get the abilities earlier. You no longer get "use an object" as a bonus action, instead getting search. And you now get a climb speed and jump based on Dex at L3. Supreme Sneak came down from 9th to 6th level and straight up gives you advantage on stealth checks. All of them no matter how fast you move. UMD changed - no more using Holy Avengers, but you get more atunement slots and more charges on charged items. And thief's reflexes is more bonus actions.

In general solid changes all round, with nothing earthshattering that I see. The "more regular subclass abilities" is just nice - as is knowing they are rewriting them (assassins need this - and this version of the thief is just better polished)
 

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Not having use an option severely makes the subclass a lot more unfun. Especially with the new twf rules, use an object just to draw one more dagger would be incredibly useful.
 

With them floating playtest1's critical changes as a possibility, it just looks like Rogue can only lose things. Sneak attack criticals, sneak attacks with Booming Blade, Thief's whole selling point of using objects as a bonus action...
 

rooneg

Adventurer
With them floating playtest1's critical changes as a possibility, it just looks like Rogue can only lose things. Sneak attack criticals, sneak attacks with Booming Blade, Thief's whole selling point of using objects as a bonus action...
Note that the criticals work with sneak attack in this version of the playtest, and to be perfectly frank I think this version of the thief is way more appealing than the "use objects as a bonus action" version.

Agreed though, it's unfortunate that stuff like Booming Blade doesn't currently work with Sneak Attack as written. I'd like to see a tweak to those spells to make them work with things that trigger off the Attack action.
 

I'm not necessarily saying that every Rogue should get sneaks off of Booming Blade, because that forms a situation where Rogues that don't go the magical way get penalized... But just losing features and not getting anything new for it, definitely doesn't feel good.
 

rooneg

Adventurer
Honestly, it feels like the stuff that's going away in this version are mostly things that weren't intended to be there in the first place. Take the whole "Sneak Attack once per Turn" thing. Yes, this means that to really maximize your Sneak Attack damage you want to be attacking on your opponents turns as much as possible, which leads you to stuff like three level dips into Fighter for Riposte or using Haste and only attacking with your Haste action so you can use your other one to Delay until someone else's turn. Everyone who's played with a player who's trying to optimize a Rogue has seen this stuff, but they've almost certainly also seen a new player who's completely mystified by the hoops someone is jumping through to make this happen. Maybe instead of leaving this loophole that many players will never find, they could set the power level of the Rogue's Sneak Attack damage at a point where it does the expected amount of damage without requiring these sort of hoops to be jumped through?
 

I'm not necessarily saying that every Rogue should get sneaks off of Booming Blade, because that forms a situation where Rogues that don't go the magical way get penalized... But just losing features and not getting anything new for it, definitely doesn't feel good.

I think, in the end, it is better that way, although now not going twf is somehow dumb. But we don't know how everything works together, even if the picture is getting a bit clearer.
We will probanly get asked about that. Lets take part in the survey and tell them about our concerns.
 

Honestly, it feels like the stuff that's going away in this version are mostly things that weren't intended to be there in the first place. Take the whole "Sneak Attack once per Turn" thing. Yes, this means that to really maximize your Sneak Attack damage you want to be attacking on your opponents turns as much as possible, which leads you to stuff like three level dips into Fighter for Riposte or using Haste and only attacking with your Haste action so you can use your other one to Delay until someone else's turn. Everyone who's played with a player who's trying to optimize a Rogue has seen this stuff, but they've almost certainly also seen a new player who's completely mystified by the hoops someone is jumping through to make this happen. Maybe instead of leaving this loophole that many players will never find, they could set the power level of the Rogue's Sneak Attack damage at a point where it does the expected amount of damage without requiring these sort of hoops to be jumped through?
Optimizer will have hard time to find new combo.
Sneak attack is now restrained.
no more -5/+10
Even polearm master and sentinel dont work no more.
They are flattening the power level.
 

Okay, wording in Fast Hands...
Sleight of Hand. Make a Dexterity Check (Sleight
of Hand) to pick a lock or disarm a trap with
Thieves’ Tools or to pick a pocket.


Regular lockpicking is just Dexterity + Thieves' Tools. This however lets you do a Sleight of Hand check with Thieves' Tools, and skill + tool = advantage. As Expertise now only lets you apply it to skills, you cannot expertise Thieves' Tools anymore, so Thief looks like the best burglar!

(yes, they might be changing lockpicking to be Sleight of Hand for everyone, but we work with what we are given)
 


Not having use an option severely makes the subclass a lot more unfun. Especially with the new twf rules, use an object just to draw one more dagger would be incredibly useful.
I'll copy and paste what I said in another thread below in the spoiler. TLDR; as written everyone can draw two Light weapons in the same turn and make two attacks without needing the Dual Wielder feat or the 5e Thief ability anymore.

From reading the Light [Weapon Property] and Equipping Weapons under the Attack [Action] section it looks like the Quick Draw bullet for the Dual Wielder feat does very little. It lets you draw or stow two weapons when you could normally only draw one. But with the new equipping rules you can equip or stow a weapon before or after any attack made with the Attack Action. The Light weapon property says

"When you take the Attack Action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon in one hand, you can make one extra attack as part of the same Action. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon in the other hand, and you don’t add your Ability Modifier to the extra attack’s damage."

Nothing in there says you need to already have a different Light weapon in your other hand to make use of this extra attack. So you could take an Attack action, draw a weapon with the Light property, attack with it, tell the DM your going to make an extra attack, draw another Light weapon in your off hand, and attack with it. Unless I missed something it seems like anyone can draw two weapons in a round as long as they are both Light.

I guess you could still find a use for Quick Draw if you switch between weapons, items, and foci regularly. But that seems like something separate from what dual wielding should be about, which is using two weapons simultaneously in combat. I mostly welcome the changes to two-weapon fighting in the packet but this feat seems pretty bad. Upping one weapon from a d4 or d6 to a d8 and a second feature that doesn't do much isn't worth passing on other feats.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
I just realized that I misread Subtle Strikes and thought it only applied to targets within 5' of you, not just your ally. So I thought it was a huge boost to melee only. Drat.
 


FitzTheRuke

Legend
Thief subclass:
you should really get Expertise in Thieves tools and Sleight of Hand at 3rd level
Expertise only works with skills in this playtest packet. But yeah, looks like Sleight of Hand is now the new "Thievery" Skill and you use it to pick locks. In fact, a Thief with SoH expertise would be rolling 2d20(high)+dex bonus+2x prof bonus to pick locks. (Advantage for using both a tool and a skill). Lock DCs are gonna have to be pretty high if you want to keep a thief out.
 

Horwath

Hero
Expertise only works with skills in this playtest packet. But yeah, looks like Sleight of Hand is now the new "Thievery" Skill and you use it to pick locks. In fact, a Thief with SoH expertise would be rolling 2d20(high)+dex bonus+2x prof bonus to pick locks. (Advantage for using both a tool and a skill). Lock DCs are gonna have to be pretty high if you want to keep a thief out.
advantage only comes in effect into combat when you MUST succeed on 1st try.
Otherwise, it's almost no effect as you always take your time picking locks.
and locks start with DC 20, so it's high from the start.
even with 18 dex at 5th level and expertise: +10 bonus,it's only 55% chance to succeed on 1st try.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
advantage only comes in effect into combat when you MUST succeed on 1st try.
Otherwise, it's almost no effect as you always take your time picking locks.
I don't understand this statement. Maybe I'm just tired. I don't know where any of that is coming from. Heck, the thief can pick locks as a bonus action. How is that "taking your time"?
 

Horwath

Hero
I don't understand this statement. Maybe I'm just tired. I don't know where any of that is coming from. Heck, the thief can pick locks as a bonus action. How is that "taking your time"?
taking your time means that you are not in a hurry and you can afford time lost for failing the check several times.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
taking your time means that you are not in a hurry and you can afford time lost for failing the check several times.
Sure. But what about that means that you don't roll with advantage if you're rolling an ability check with a skill and using tools (a rule since Xanathar's).
 


FitzTheRuke

Legend
He just means: if you can retry as often as you like, you have super advantage...
Oh! I thought I was being a bit thick in my understanding. That makes sense. I thought he meant you didn't get advantage in situations where you can try again, which seemed like a really weird idea to me. Of course, I'm not sure I'd ever make anyone roll a check if they could just keep going and going. I'd just say "it takes you twenty minutes, but you get it done..." or something.
 

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