OneDnD Rogue Playtest Discussion

Oh! I thought I was being a bit thick in my understanding. That makes sense. I thought he meant you didn't get advantage in situations where you can try again, which seemed like a really weird idea to me. Of course, I'm not sure I'd ever make anyone roll a check if they could just keep going and going. I'd just say "it takes you twenty minutes, but you get it done..." or something.

As a lock picking "expert" myself, I can assure you, a youtube video and two paperclips will let you open a standard padlock in 20 minutes. Faster if you are lucky.
With a sport lockpick set you get it done in a few minutes or with some luck in 6 seconds.

It has taken me a while to understand 3e in that regard: if there is no time pressure, just allow the rogue to always take 20 and suddenly DCs work right out of the book without magic items and the rogue feels good and useful.
 

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Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
Sneak attack criticals,
Still possible. They changed back the Critical Hit rules on this playtest.
sneak attacks with Booming Blade,
Still possible, but only for rogues that multiclass 6 levels into Bladesinger Wizard (because you can then cast a cantrip as part of the Attack Action).
Thief's whole selling point of using objects as a bonus action...
That feature was too confusing for the majority of people, "Using objects" isn't really a thing Thieves in the real world are known for, and the subclass got buffs in other places.
 

Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
One change I am sorry for, though the writing had been on the wall, was that rogues can no longer take expertise in Thieves' tools. It was one of the very few edges rogues could have over Bards as a skill monkey.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
One change I am sorry for, though the writing had been on the wall, was that rogues can no longer take expertise in Thieves' tools. It was one of the very few edges rogues could have over Bards as a skill monkey.
Just take the expertise in Sleight-of-hand. That's now Thievery and all tools just give you advantage to checks using skills (or prof. bonus if no skill applies but the tool does).

Which means "musical instrument" is pretty much always A performance check with advantage. (Though this has been true since Xanathar's). Now Thieves' Tools are the same, but with SoH.
 

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
One change I am sorry for, though the writing had been on the wall, was that rogues can no longer take expertise in Thieves' tools. It was one of the very few edges rogues could have over Bards as a skill monkey.
It looks like Thieves' Tools Checks are just Sleight of Hand Checks now. So you get expertise in both if/when you take expertise in Sleight of Hand.
 

Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
I get what the change is, I am just sorry that they took away one of the very few Rogue-only abilities. Anyone can take expertise in Sleight-of-Hand.
 

Expertise only works with skills in this playtest packet. But yeah, looks like Sleight of Hand is now the new "Thievery" Skill and you use it to pick locks. In fact, a Thief with SoH expertise would be rolling 2d20(high)+dex bonus+2x prof bonus to pick locks. (Advantage for using both a tool and a skill). Lock DCs are gonna have to be pretty high if you want to keep a thief out.
so we have evolved into skyrim which is good to know.

it might need a combat buff from the looks of it but otherwise, it seems fine.
 


That feature was too confusing for the majority of people, "Using objects" isn't really a thing Thieves in the real world are known for, and the subclass got buffs in other places.

It was dropping caltrops and ball bearings as your bonus action. Drinking a potion too.
Drawing an extra dagger also was...

Maybe this is what a bonus action can do soon by default. .. so maybe it will become redundand...
 



Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
It was dropping caltrops and ball bearings as your bonus action. Drinking a potion too.
Drawing an extra dagger also was...

Maybe this is what a bonus action can do soon by default. .. so maybe it will become redundand...
…and giving a potion to an unconscious friend.
 


Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Rogues have been nerfed, and I don't know why. I don't know anyone who was saying Rogues were overpowered.

1) You can no longer sneak attack on a reaction. Which makes no sense to me. If someone withdraws from engagement with you without taking the disengage action, why wouldn't your opportunity attack be a sneak attack as well? You can no now longer sneak attack with a readied action.

2) You no longer add sneak attack damage on a critical hit.

3) You no longer have Steady Aim as an option here, though it was obviously a patch option from Tasha's to grant advantage more often because Rogues were intended to sneak attack most of the time. They basically moved it to 13th level with Subtle Strikes (Pack Tactics by a different name) as the means of reliably getting advantage, which is too late to be used for most rogues in play.

4) Evasion now comes two levels later, for no apparent reason?

5) Can no longer get sneak attack with the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrip as both don't grant the Attack action, just an attack.

6) Reliable Talent now no longer helps with things like initiative If you had proficiency added to it), grapple escapes, or counterspell checks or similar checks as it's now specific to a skill or tool check and not an ability check, and they already had made sure it wouldn't help with grapple checks with grapple rules changes.

7) Longsword is no longer part of their proficiencies.

I have not reviewed the Thief enough yet, other than to note Fast Hands no longer works with a Healer's Kit, which is a nerf.

They do get some buffs:

A) Two weapon fighting rules help them, sometimes quite a bit as I believe they can now get two attacks and still cunning action, which is important.
B) I think they get subclass features earlier than they used to (though I have not focused much on the subclass yet)
C) I think they got Whip proficiency added though it being a finesse weapon (I am not sure)?
D) I do like that they get Pack Tactics at 13th level - it just doesn't make up for sort of having that with Steady Hands before at a much lower level.
 
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Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
Rogues have been nerfed, and I don't know why. I don't know anyone who was saying Rogues were overpowered.

1) You can no longer sneak attack on a reaction. Which makes no sense to me. If someone withdraws from engagement with you without taking the disengage action, why wouldn't your opportunity attack be a sneak attack as well? You can no now longer sneak attack with a readied action.

4) Evasion now comes two levels later, for no apparent reason?

These two are the big nerfs I think are worth commenting on in the feedback. The others worry me less.
I am wondering where you see your #2? I missed it

2) You no longer add sneak attack damage on a critical hit.
 

Rogues have been nerfed, and I don't know why. I don't know anyone who was saying Rogues were overpowered.

1) You can no longer sneak attack on a reaction. Which makes no sense to me. If someone withdraws from engagement with you without taking the disengage action, why wouldn't your opportunity attack be a sneak attack as well? You can no now longer sneak attack with a readied action.

2) You no longer add sneak attack damage on a critical hit.

3) You no longer have Steady Aim as an option here, though it was obviously a patch option from Tasha's to grant advantage more often because Rogues were intended to sneak attack most of the time. They basically moved it to 13th level with Subtle Strikes, which is too late to be used for most rogues in play.

4) Evasion now comes two levels later, for no apparent reason?

5) Reliable Talent now no longer helps with things like initiative, grapple escapes, or counterspell checks or similar checks as it's now specific to a skill or tool check and not an ability check, and they already had made sure it wouldn't help with grapple checks with grapple rules changes.

6) Longsword is no longer part of their proficiencies.

I have not reviewed the Thief enough yet, other than to note Fast Hands no longer works with a Healer's Kit, which is a nerf.

They do get some buffs:

A) Two weapon fighting rules help them, sometimes quite a bit as I believe they can now get two attacks and still cunning action, which is important.
B) I think they get subclass features earlier than they used to (though I have not focused much on the subclass yet)
C) I think they got Whip proficiency added though it being a finesse weapon (I am not sure)?
D) I do like that they get Pact Tactics at 13th level - it just doesn't make up for sort of having that with Steady Hands before at a much lower level.
Point 4 and B are related. Evasion coming later seems to be the tradeoff for moving their subclass features to lower levels. They had to backfill some of those vacated levels. I prefer the change because it was so weird having to wait until level 9 for a second subclass feature.
 

Point 4 and B are related. Evasion coming later seems to be the tradeoff for moving their subclass features to lower levels. They had to backfill some of those vacated levels. I prefer the change because it was so weird having to wait until level 9 for a second subclass feature.

Most obvious thing: nerf 1 is mostly for 5% of people. Those who have system mastery AND are willing to optimize their characters.

Sneak attack impossible on an opportunity attack or reaction is the only thing that hurts a bit, but If think the Idea of cutting off specific builds is good.
 

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
Rogues have been nerfed, and I don't know why. I don't know anyone who was saying Rogues were overpowered.

1) You can no longer sneak attack on a reaction. Which makes no sense to me. If someone withdraws from engagement with you without taking the disengage action, why wouldn't your opportunity attack be a sneak attack as well? You can no now longer sneak attack with a readied action.
We'll have to wait and see the changes to Readied Action. It probably won't have changed substantially enough to allow Sneak Attack with Readied Actions, but it might (i.e. if they change Readied Action to a "delay your entire turn" feature).
2) You no longer add sneak attack damage on a critical hit.
Yes, you can. Not only can you add sneak attack damage on a critical hit, but the sneak attack damage is doubled just like it was in the 2014 PHB.
3) You no longer have Steady Aim as an option here, though it was obviously a patch option from Tasha's to grant advantage more often because Rogues were intended to sneak attack most of the time. They basically moved it to 13th level with Subtle Strikes, which is too late to be used for most rogues in play.
Steadied Aim might be an option still, just not printed in this book. It's a bit unclear, but I see no reason to say that it's not an option anymore.

Also, Subtle Strikes is not like Steady Aim in the slightest. It gives you advantage on the attack roll if you already have an ally within 5 feet of the enemy (which means you can still Sneak Attack if you would have had disadvantage on the Attack Roll). That's more like Flanking than Steady Aim.
4) Evasion now comes two levels later, for no apparent reason?
Because you get a subclass feature at level 6, which moves your additional Expertise from level 6 to level 7, which moves Evasion to level 9 (they couldn't have moved it to level 8, because that's when you get a feat). This certainly nerfs some of the Rogue, but I think it's an overall buff due to the subclass feature coming earlier (we'll have to see all of the subclasses in order to say for sure).
5) Reliable Talent now no longer helps with things like initiative, grapple escapes, or counterspell checks or similar checks as it's now specific to a skill or tool check and not an ability check, and they already had made sure it wouldn't help with grapple checks with grapple rules changes.
2014's Reliable Talent would have only worked for Initiative if you were a Harengon.
6) Longsword is no longer part of their proficiencies.
That's not really a nerf. Longswords are practically useless for Rogues. They're not finesse or ranged weapons, so Rogues can't Sneak Attack with them. The only Longsword that Rogues can use effectively (the Sunblade) gives you proficiency in it if you have proficiency in Shortswords, which Rogues do have.
A) Two weapon fighting rules help them, sometimes quite a bit as I believe they can now get two attacks and still cunning action, which is important.
B) I think they get subclass features earlier than they used to (though I have not focused much on the subclass yet)
C) I think they got Whip proficiency added though it being a finesse weapon (I am not sure)?
D) I do like that they get Pact Tactics at 13th level - it just doesn't make up for sort of having that with Steady Hands before at a much lower level.
A) Yep. Huge buff for melee rogues.
B) Also a good buff. That was one of the few parts of the 2014 Rogue that I disliked. Waiting to get another subclass feature for 6 levels is painful.
C) Whips in the 2014 PHB are finesse, so this is a good buff if it stays that way. I always thought that Rogues should be the class that fills the Indiana Jones role.

Note: Thieves' Tools checks are now Sleight of Hand Checks. And, if you have proficiency in both Sleight of Hands and Thieves' Tools (which most Rogues will), then you have advantage and proficiency in all Thieves' Tools-based Sleight of Hand checks. That's another pretty significant buff.
 

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